12-02-2003 23:10									#1
	North Korea can deliver Nuclear payload to the United States. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Things get worse and worse...

quote: . Korean Rocket Can Reach U.S., CIA Says By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - North Korea (news - web sites) has an untested ballistic missile capable of reaching the western United States, intelligence officials said Wednesday. The North Korean missile is a three-stage version of the Taepo Dong 2, said Vice Adm. Lowell Jacoby, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. It has not been flight-tested, Jacoby said, leaving some questions about the North Korea's capability to successfully launch the missile. CIA (news - web sites) Director George J. Tenet, who joined Jacoby in briefing the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites), also acknowledged the North Koreans have the capability to reach the western United States with a long-range missile. Previous U.S. intelligence reports have said such a missile probably could carry a nuclear weapon-sized payload across the Pacific Ocean. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said he was unfamiliar with the testimony but said: "Technology and time means regimes like North Korea will increasingly have the ability to strike at the United States." He said that is why President Bush (news - web sites) supports building an anti-missile shield. "We do have concerns ... about North Korea's missile development programs," Fleischer told reporters. The revelation was certain to raise questions about Bush's priorities — and whether North Korea or Iraq pose a greater threat to the United States. Baghdad does not possess weapons that can strike America, officials have said. "They are both important priorities," Fleischer said. "The question is, what are the means best used to deal with each priority." He said diplomacy has failed to curb Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s weapons of mass destruction program for more than a decade, thus Bush made military action a front-and-center option. "That's not the case with North Korea," Fleischer said, saying Bush believes diplomatic pressure can contain North Korea. Tenet said North Korea probably has one or two nuclear weapons. An unclassified U.S. intelligence estimate, released by CIA officials in December 2001, said the three-stage Taepo Dong 2 missile was probably close to being ready for flight testing. But North Korea has held to a voluntary moratorium on flight tests of its long-range missiles, although officials in Pyongyang likely will conduct new tests. The 2001 U.S. government report said a three-stage Taepo Dong could deliver a several-hundred-pound payload from North Korea to targets about 9,300 miles distant — sufficient to strike all of North America. A two-stage Taepo Dong 2, which would be easier to use successfully, may be able to reach Alaska or Hawaii, it said. In 1998, the North Koreans attempted to put a satellite into orbit with the launch of a three-stage version of the earlier model of the Taepo Dong. It failed when the third stage did not ignite.

	12-02-2003 23:13									#2
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	12-02-2003 23:19									#3
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It failed in '98? Their Dong lacks the balls to go the distance.

	12-02-2003 23:21									#4
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98 was 5 years ago, keep things in perspective.

	12-02-2003 23:47									#5
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I doubt that one can build a nuke that weighs only a few hundred pounds, the payload capacity of the three stage Dong.

However, I live near San Fancisco.

Stop N. Korea now!

Last edited by Ned on 12-02-2003 at 23:56

	13-02-2003 00:00									#6
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I dare them to test it. We might sit back so quietly as Japan did. [cue in Evil American Empire Music here]

	13-02-2003 00:02									#7
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I wonder if the lefties who protested national missile defense will now embrace it?

	13-02-2003 00:09									#8
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One word: NO.

Besides, I still have reservations about the technology. Yet the only way to work out the kinks is to actually deploy it — even if only on a small scale — and give it a a workout with non-lethal incoming warheads.

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2003 06:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I doubt that one can build a nuke that weighs only a few hundred pounds, the payload capacity of the three stage Dong.

How many hundred pounds?

100 might be out of NK's range. 500 is probably well within it.

	13-02-2003 06:44									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wonder if the lefties who protested national missile defense will now embrace it?

Let's see, a program that doesn't work that costs between 800 billion dollars and 1.2 trillion... yeah good idea

	13-02-2003 07:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wonder if the lefties who protested national missile defense will now embrace it?

nope

	13-02-2003 09:06									#12
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Oh goodie, another boogie man.

	13-02-2003 09:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Their Dong lacks the balls to go the distance.

North Korea's problems in the intercontinental bedroom aside, who says you need a missile to nuke the US? It's far far easier with a suitcase, and even Iraq has invented those.

	13-02-2003 09:19									#14
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Practically, that's more of a threat in the long run.

But having the means to deliver in an ICBM is more useful when holding the US up for ransom like they are right now.

	13-02-2003 10:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Let's see, a program that doesn't work that costs between 800 billion dollars and 1.2 trillion... yeah good idea

That begs the question: What would it cost us, over time, if we did not build some sort of defense (or even attempt one) and had to live w/the boogeyman of a strike on one of our cities day in and day out?

Sure, the United States and the fallen Soviet Union never did exchange nuclear strikes due to MAD. But the more nations that have such capabilities — made even worse if they're not democratic — increases the risk of something happening. After all, not everyone is necessarily deterred by MAD, especially so if a nuke ends up in the hands of some wacked out terrorist group, either through the black market, theft or being supplied by a nation like North Korea.

A second question is this: What would the economic impact be if Los Angeles, Seattle or San Diego (or parts thereof) were taken out of action by a WoMD? $800 billion? $1.2 trillion? More? Less? What about the ripple effects?

Who knows if any of this will ever come to pass (I hope not), but would you be willing to live in a world where every tyrant eventually has access to such weapons?

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2003 10:14									#16
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Up until the DPRK tests sometyhing that will travel more than 1000 miles, I don' buy this claim. Until the US can give us a single test in which the ABM shiled works under some close to real world situations (doesn't have to be worst case, but more than lobbyin softballs underhanded) will I even begin to back such a system, and then only if you make the case why it is more cost effective over other solutions.

	13-02-2003 10:22									#17
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Well, I'd have to say this is a positive development, if true. Maybe it'll teach Bush to generally **** off in areas that are none of his business.

	13-02-2003 10:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I doubt that one can build a nuke that weighs only a few hundred pounds, the payload capacity of the three stage Dong.

A simple first generation warhead should weigh less than a few hundred pounds easily.
Of course this would assume a refined, efficient, tested, design and a moderately low yield. Sub-100ktons.
The NK's can undoubtably refine it somewhat (they don't need to reinvent the wheel afterall) but the testing is something else altogether. The nuclear powers had a looong time to adjust and perfect their warheads. NK doesn't.

	13-02-2003 11:18									#19
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Let see. Psychotic madman with nuclear weapons, the means to drop them on the western U.S., and who is threatening war. I'm so glad we don't have a crisis situation with North Korea.

Now, onward to Bagdad to put an end to the real threat to the U.S.: That guy with no nuclear weapons, no long range missiles and who isn't making any threats against the U.S.

	13-02-2003 11:54									#20
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North Korea is doing now what Iraq may be doing itself in five to 10 years: conducting nuclear blackmail.

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2003 12:55									#21
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and the US ?
which part of the world is safe from them ?

	13-02-2003 13:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and the US ? which part of the world is safe from them ?

We don't threaten to blow off your cities if you don't give us tribute. We actually help each other to get more prosperous. I hope you can see this basic difference.

	13-02-2003 13:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper That begs the question: What would it cost us, over time, if we did not build some sort of defense (or even attempt one) and had to live w/the boogeyman of a strike on one of our cities day in and day out?

*sigh*

I don't understand why we have to go through this gazillion number of times.

First and foremost, being able to stop ICBMs will not stop nuclear threats. ICBM is the most advanced delivery method, available to only a few countries. On the other hand, it's much easier to get a nuclear warhead, being a bit smaller than an ICBM.

Secondly, any such defenses will not stop attacks carried out by rightwing militia groups. Neither can you stop other, more probable terrorist attacks.

Thirdly, you are just encouraging the countries with ICBMs to develop newer missiles that cannot be stopped by your "shield."

So, all this $ down the drain for nothing.

	13-02-2003 13:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless We don't threaten to blow off your cities if you don't give us tribute.

So how does this apply to Grenada, Panama, or Cuba? What has Cuba done to the US anyway?

	13-02-2003 13:26									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So how does this apply to Grenada, Panama, or Cuba? What has Cuba done to the US anyway?

Our message is clear: if you work together with us, we will prosper together. If you oppose us, we will screw you over. I think that's fairly standard human behavior. What do you expect us to be, angels?

Now let's consider Iraq's and NK's agenda: if you do not give us what we want, we will kill you, most preferably civilians and children.

We act like a normal human would do, and they act like, well, thugs.

	13-02-2003 13:54									#26
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North Korea can deliver Nuclear payload to the United States...

So what? So can USA deliver nuclear payload to the North Korea.

	13-02-2003 14:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Our message is clear: if you work together with us, we will prosper together. If you oppose us, we will screw you over. I think that's fairly standard human behavior. What do you expect us to be, angels? Now let's consider Iraq's and NK's agenda: if you do not give us what we want, we will kill you, most preferably civilians and children. We act like a normal human would do, and they act like, well, thugs.

I see no difference.

The US wanted Cuba and Grenada to act the way they are told to. They refused. Very Bad Things happened to them.

Iraq and NK wants the US to act the way they want the US to. If refused, Very Bad Things will happen.

I am not done yet.

Neither Iraq nor DPRK has actually threatened the US.

So I have to correct what I said - the US has been acting like a thug with a big stick, not these other people.

	13-02-2003 15:05									#28
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Anyone noticed, that at the moment, the worst threat to world peace is George W. Bush?

"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"

Last edited by Tattila the Hun on 13-02-2003 at 15:48

	13-02-2003 17:32									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Our message is clear: if you work together with us, we will prosper together. If you oppose us, we will screw you over. I think that's fairly standard human behavior. What do you expect us to be, angels?

what did happen to the "land of the free" ?
Or do you have to be an american to be allowed to have an own oppinion?

[/QUOTE]

Now let's consider Iraq's and NK's agenda: if you do not give us what we want, we will kill you, most preferably civilians and children.

[/QUOTE]

Please explain to me on whose heads your bombs have fallen in the past forty years ...

	13-02-2003 17:39									#30
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Missile defense or not, if someone launches a few nukes, the fallout is still going to cause a lot of damage. The system doesn't work. The idea is stupid. And it's a waste of money. Ahhh, nothing like a pork-barrel gift to defense contractors. God Bless America