17-02-2003 17:44									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

50 fortresses!! That's not a 'mannerheim-line'. That's a Great Wall.

I would build more of them if I could raze them without destroying other improvements. Of course, if my workers have nothing better to do I raze the forts anyway and rebuild other improvements afterwards.

	17-02-2003 18:37									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by aaglo Once I made a "Mannerheim-line" across the continent, approximately 50 fortresses side-by-side. It was beautiful

Can you post a capture?

	18-02-2003 01:19									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Fotresses are in my opinion interesting, not useful. As all of you have said, you can just walk by them. Now as you all have pointed out this they can be useful because the AI is stupid, but no human player would make such mistakes.

What would make fortresses absolutley wonderful as far as the game goes is if they had ZOC a la CtP style, where you couldn't walk bt fortified units (in civIII I would restrict this to units fortified in fortresses). imagine cuting off access to seas and bays with coastal fortesses and severing continents with inland forts, kind of like what they did in real life.

	19-02-2003 12:19									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Can you post a capture?

Yes I can, but it's not very interesting anymore. I have long time ago crossed that line and conquered the lands beyond. Besides, the modern fortresses aren't as nice looking as the previous looks. And as I counted them, there were about 35 fortresses - not 50 .

	19-02-2003 12:25									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

About the fortresses:

Why do they automatically change their looks, when era changes? It should require worker actions.

And wouldn't this be cool: You have a fortress built during the medieval era - ZAP - era changes to industrial. The fortress doesn't change looks, and it's effect drops 33%. But if you put a worker on the job, it becomes a new type of fortress with new looks, with shorter building time.

I bet this can't be modded in...

	19-02-2003 17:02									#36
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The fortresses stay the same but the graphics changes...

Why only fortresses, why not have roads disintegrate after 100 so your workers had to repair them on given interval If I had to manually 'upgrade' forts and other improvements each time I reached a new era I would simply find another hobby. I could take up fly-fishing, even with all the mosquitos you find around lakes and rivers the micro-management is still much less than 'improved' civ3.

	19-02-2003 17:07									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

But.... but...

Old fortifications tend to collapse. And they are not effective against modern artillery.

And by all means, do go fishing.

	19-02-2003 18:00									#38
	The Wall of Eridu Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In Eridu, there was a chokepoint which, as long as the wall held, could keep back the "barbaric hordes" of Persia forever. If they wanted to invade, they would have to come by sea. Of course, the Forts of Eridu were full of Artillery.


http://www.zachriel.com/gotm12/Eridu.htm

	19-02-2003 18:05									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Heh... that looks very much like my style of playing.

	19-02-2003 19:27									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

aaglo , I know that old fortifications tend to crumble or become inefficent over time but I'm willing to sacrifice that bit or realism for the sake of playability Did I mention that I violently oppose any suggestion that will increase the need for micromanagement?

If you want realism back in you should add maintainance cost for forts under your control. That way you can justify fortifications remaining intact and effective during the centuries.

	19-02-2003 20:01									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Zachriel, the SW Army should be on grassland.

Great screenshot though... my games often look like that at some point.

	19-02-2003 21:29									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Zachriel, the SW Army should be on grassland. Great screenshot though... my games often look like that at some point.

The Army is question is on a mountain full of Artillery and reinforcements. The Artillery is in range of any force that approaches the Southern Wall of Eridu, but of course, can be relocated on Rail to any point necessary. The Army, Infantry and Tanks stationed in reserve can also be deployed along the walls as needed. If the enemy were to breach the Wall, then the mountaintop Artillery station will make them pay for every inch of ground they take. Plus the Army looks cool overlooking the battlefield.

(Admittedly, this is way overkill for an AI enemy. )

	20-02-2003 02:26									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Zachriel If the enemy were to breach the Wall, then the mountaintop Artillery station will make them pay for every inch of ground they take. Plus the Army looks cool overlooking the battlefield. (Admittedly, this is way overkill for an AI enemy. )

Or.... they can just paradrop and do marine attack..

If I were Persia, however, One of my nuke reserves will do the trick

	20-02-2003 19:51									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I place a few here and there on my borders before I plan an attack or if I think I am about to be attacked. I put a couple of infantry and a stack of artillery in them which I use to wear down enemy units that attempt to cross the border. Artillery are incredibly useful IMHO. I also take along a worker or two and build a fortress next to a city I plan to attack this helps a great deal, especially if there is a hill to build on.

I played a few games where I tried to wall off my whole country, but this only works up until the development of tanks (much like real life) and as soon as you conquer another city, you have to rebuild the wall. Then if it is broken the AI will hole up in the empty forts behind you. That can be a real pain.

	21-02-2003 11:37									#45
	Got spare money?

Okay, here's my fortress-wall. The picture is zoomed out, and I've put a red arrow on top of each fortress. Now this was the old line, I was originally on the southern side.

Attachment: mline1.png
This has been downloaded 118 time(s).

	21-02-2003 13:48									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I only build them in certain situations. moreso in human games than against the ai. although a human is likely to bypass the fortress...

in any case the pbem's I'm in right now, I still haven't gotten around to it. But eventually I will build fortresses on some hill and mountains squares.

	21-02-2003 23:32									#47
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by aaglo Okay, here's my fortress-wall. The picture is zoomed out, and I've put a red arrow on top of each fortress. Now this was the old line, I was originally on the southern side.

Considering the minimap, this fortress-wall was build a long time ago.

	23-02-2003 08:08									#48
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"The manually made piece-by-piece Great Wall"

	23-02-2003 08:22									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hmmm, is that a gap in the wall I see near Ctesiphon? Just like the real great wall

	23-02-2003 22:44									#50
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

There's also a "sea gap" near Arbela... good for landing forces.

	23-02-2003 23:02									#51
	Got spare money?

i still wish fortressed exerted civ2-style ZOC. IE a unit cannot pass through 2 fortresses spaced 1 tile away

	23-02-2003 23:45									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sometimes I think they took out ZOC because it was no longer relevant if you can't walk all over the place on enemy railroads anymore. Thinking this way, I like better the way it is now.

	24-02-2003 05:54									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I like them here, I like them there
In the hills and on the plains
So I can guard iron and grains
I like them Sam I am
I like some forts in my plan

	24-02-2003 14:28									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yep, In my wall there is a gap. But I noticed it only when I already conquered the lands north from me...

	27-02-2003 16:25									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess nobody would feel bad, if I mention about my new idea for fortress graphics (I started a thread in the creation-forum).

Here's a "preview"

Attachment: newfort.png
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	27-02-2003 21:38									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Looks pretty good, and would certainly clear up if you have any gaps...but I rarely build fortresses. Actually, one time I conquered the second continent, but didn't want to settle many completely corrupt cities, so I set up a border around the entire continent with 70+ tanks, cavalry, etc to keep the other civs from building cities. Still missed a few spots and noticed them as transports/galleons moved towards them for a landfall.

	27-02-2003 21:45									#57
	Support Apolyton

Hey, aaglo, how do you make those graphics? They are c00l!

	28-02-2003 12:08									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I use a freeware program called pov-ray http://www.povray.org

It's a text-based raytracing program, with quite long learning curve. The tutorial help is really handy for starters...

	28-02-2003 14:39									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I use some generic program that came with my computer.

	28-02-2003 14:53									#60
	Put an end to popups!

I always buld than at bottleneck and stick two artilery and two defence units in them, depending on how important the bottleneck is