13-02-2003 07:10									#1
	Fortresses, Schmortresses! Support Apolyton

When I play a Civ game, I don't usually build fortresses, due to the fact the I like to employ my workers on really infrastructural matters. Of course, I know the benefits that it gives, but never took the time to do so. It's like the Artillery Thread.

I would like to know what you people think about fortresses. Do you build it? How do you build it: it's whereabouts, terrain stuff, what units stay in it, the existence of plan B and "devasted land" tactic if the enemy conquers it...

See ya!

	13-02-2003 08:18									#2
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I only build them if I have a lot of extra workers. Sometimes I send workers into enemy territory and guard them with troops while they build fortresses there. I also will build them along the coast and at key chokepoints if I have extra workers.

	13-02-2003 11:32									#3
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I think they are only useful when there are certain "chokepoints" or strategic positions you wish to defend. But dotting the landscape like the AI did in Civ2 is pretty much useless unless you are being invaded Barbarossa-style.

I've noticed that the AI hardly builds fortresses either.

	13-02-2003 13:45									#4
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I build them only to protect strategical points (chokepoints, mountains or hills near cities...) and quite late in the game. I usually fortify one vet MI within it.

	13-02-2003 14:22									#5
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I'm a hardcore builder, and as such I don't like my holdings disturbed. So, when I feel I've exanded enough, I set to building my own version of the Great Wall -- unbroken lines of defensive units covering all access points, including shorelines when I have enough, and bunkered down in fortresses as workers are freed up from other tasks.

Other then that, I always build them on mountains, starting with ones having a vital road or railroad.

	13-02-2003 14:41									#6
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I wish the AI would build fortresses to protect its borders. It would make it a more worthy opponent. Of course fixed defences do have their problems. Invaders can normally find some way around them, as the French found out in 1940.

	13-02-2003 15:24									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sheik I only build them if I have a lot of extra workers. Sometimes I send workers into enemy territory and guard them with troops while they build fortresses there.

The best use of fortresses might be in preparation for an attack. Build fortresses outside enemy cities (preferably with a ROP), and then when you attack, you have prepared positions for your attackers to wait out the enemy counterattacks.

	13-02-2003 15:28									#8
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The main benefit from fortresses in civ2 were the ability to defend one unit at a time instead of loosing the whole stack when the strongest defender died. As this behaviour is default in civ3 fortresses are simply not that important anymore. I still build them though, only in smaller numbers. Typically on borders where i know they will be needed soon.

The ideal situation is a short border(3-7 tiles) protected by a semi-open line of fortresses. I place them on terrain with defensive bonuses and roads so I can move units back to cities for quicker healing. By leaving openings in the line the AI will march between them instead of attacking the fortresses directly. Passing the fortresses will cause them some damage(ZOC) and with intelligent placement the enemy will be left in the open where they are vulnerable to bombardment and attack.

	13-02-2003 15:52									#9
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Ah, so building fortresses for the AI not to attack, but to channel them instead into your "trap". This I like.

-Jam

	13-02-2003 15:57									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane The best use of fortresses might be in preparation for an attack. Build fortresses outside enemy cities (preferably with a ROP), and then when you attack, you have prepared positions for your attackers to wait out the enemy counterattacks.

Thats pretty much an exploit. You only get away with it because the AI is stupid

	13-02-2003 17:50									#11
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The AI will do it to you if you give him the change. ROP-rape is not exclusive to human.

War of Art , if I rember correctly I actually tried to build a continous line but never quite finished. When the war begun I found out that the openings actully worked to my advantage, forming a trap. It worked even better because the AI moved its troop not only past my strong forts but also past a heavy defended city, I guess he was going for some weakly defended city in my interior. Needless to say he failed. If he had attacked the forts directly, or even the first city he may just have made it.

	13-02-2003 18:03									#12
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I also like to use the fortresses to create traps. This is an interesting and useful way to make them worthy.

	13-02-2003 18:40									#13
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The AI won't build fortresses round your cities and then break the ROP though. I've been attackes even though I had an ROP but they sure as hell didn't have an army camped in a fortress next to my capital.

If this has happened then sorry, it just doesn't sound likely

	13-02-2003 23:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by bongo The ideal situation is a short border(3-7 tiles) protected by a semi-open line of fortresses. I place them on terrain with defensive bonuses and roads so I can move units back to cities for quicker healing. By leaving openings in the line the AI will march between them instead of attacking the fortresses directly. Passing the fortresses will cause them some damage(ZOC) and with intelligent placement the enemy will be left in the open where they are vulnerable to bombardment and attack.

Haha, this reminds me of Warcraft III. I used to play those crazy Tower Defense game, where basically you get hordes of enemy going through ur tunnel of towers and getting killed on the way.

Anybody here plays Warcraft III ? (while not playing Civ 3, of course )

	14-02-2003 01:39									#15
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Well, I usually build fortresses late in the game, and on borders that will meet some heavy fighting. The prefered terrain is a hill or a mountain, Th initial troops gathered there consist of 3 good defense units, and at least 1-2 artillery.

When war gets more close (or the time known as "your troops are almost complete for engagement, sir"), I begin a "border closure" policy: every square that the enemy can possibly use to get through land to my territory is closed, and everybody inside is kicked out. Warships are all around my seas. Inside troops are at critical locations for those who do not get out and will want to fight. Workers are mobilized. Fighters distributed on chief core cities and border cities that may be bombarded.

Then combat starts, and I usually do a defensive war at first, holding the line for the suicid, I mean, enemy soldiers (known as "Braveheart's HOLD Tactic"). The artillery and (if available) bombers kick in, destroying key (rail)roads that link our countries, and some resource improvements. Anything that still breathes is also bombarded.

When the enemy is weakened, it is time for Blitzkrieg. Rush rush rush to the producer city(ies). Conquest.

So, the preparation time of attack is, as I presently do, the only time that I use the fortresses. All rushing and further advancement are made just with troos, and holding positions are made by numbers.

I don't know if this is right; for me, it works fine, although its costs are pretty huge. I'm trying to be more surgical on my interventions, but I still need some practice and troop calculating skills.

	14-02-2003 14:07									#16
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It's always smart to let the AI waste the best part of his troops in suicide-attacks before you attack yourself.

TheStinger , I have never seen the AI build forts in my territory in preparations for an attack. Considering the fact that I have never seen the AI build forts at all, that is expected. But I have had an AI exploit a ROP. Cost me 20+ workers...

	14-02-2003 20:02									#17
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Hey minke19104,
Never played Warcraft, but did this a lot in Age of Empires2....Wall in my city, but leave a long walled opening...AI would march thru the opening and get slaughtered......not effective against human opponents unfortunately.....they just kick in the back door

	14-02-2003 22:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by bongo It's always smart to let the AI waste the best part of his troops in suicide-attacks before you attack yourself. TheStinger , I have never seen the AI build forts in my territory in preparations for an attack. Considering the fact that I have never seen the AI build forts at all, that is expected. But I have had an AI exploit a ROP. Cost me 20+ workers...

I have seen the AI build fortresses... in the desert.

	15-02-2003 00:03									#19
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I will build Fortresses in areas that I use as Rally Points, or Military Reserves. I find that the Fortress helps to quickly locate where to send my troops until they are needed. So I use them more as a visual aid rather than for the defensive bonus.

However, they are useful in the later game when using Artillery. (I love HUGE stacks of Artillery!) Send in a couple of defenders and a stack of about 30+ Artillery and enough Workers to construct a Fortress in 1 turn. I've rarely lost any Arty stacks using this method.

	15-02-2003 06:32									#20
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I build fortresses all over the place. I'm sort of a fortress fanatic.

Forward defense, Maginot Lines, kill zones, protecting key defensive points... I can;t understand why people don't.

Workers? Nada problemo once I've been in a few early wars. And later? You know what I LOVE?? Cultural expansion so you can get within 2 tiles of a biiiig enemy metro... drop a 4X Infantry Army on it, backed up with 30-40 Arty and god knows how many Workers... you have one turn to get the fortress built, but then... steel rain.

What I miss is fortress healing, like in Civ2. Took me forever to get used to that.

	15-02-2003 06:42									#21
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quote: ... backed up with 30-40 Arty ...

I still say the PRIMARY advantage the player has (other than a brain) is the "ability" to concentrate offensive artillery. I am currently self-imposing a 5-bombardment-units stack limitation (or was it 6 ) on land. Naval/Air not limited.

	15-02-2003 07:08									#22
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5 or 6 Arty??



Hey, in my defense, it's only when I get into a "Thesian" (patent pending) come-back-against-all-odds situation that I lay into the AI civs with massive Arty.

	15-02-2003 07:25									#23
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Theseus, in MY defense please understand that I am STILL playing at Regent level, large maps. May try my first Monarch after my current game in which I made some more rule modifications.

Also, that stack limitation is per tile: Multiple stacks against same target permitted.

	16-02-2003 10:36									#24
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Fair enough.

I've been playing the "Dark Side Challenge," and actually having a blast with an Infantry/Arty offensive.

It does take, hmmm, a LOT of Arty.

Yum yum.

	16-02-2003 10:39									#25
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Oh, and OT:

Fortresses have been critically important. And with probably 100-150 foreign worker slaves:

Insta-Fortress. (tm)

A good thing.

	17-02-2003 09:13									#26
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I build alot of Fortresses! What I do is space them every two squares apart, generally two squares from a city, then stick a bombard and a defence unit in each one. The AI will tend to go in between them trying to get to the city behind, and generally get turned into coleslaw while trying to get through.

	17-02-2003 09:23									#27
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Willem, I presume that you also lure the AI to the particular city with it being defended only by a single spear (or less) until the last moment.

	17-02-2003 11:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Willem, I presume that you also lure the AI to the particular city with it being defended only by a single spear (or less) until the last moment.

No, I haven't actually tried that one, I usually don't have to bother. I'll have to keep it in mind though.

	17-02-2003 15:24									#29
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Too bad the AI will never figure out when to avoid a hard target and when to go right at it.

	17-02-2003 17:05									#30
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I like fortresses. If nothing else, it's something to do with my extra workers...

Once I made a "Mannerheim-line" across the continent, approximately 50 fortresses side-by-side. It was beautiful