17-02-2003 13:49									#31
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Sorry, BF, I think I agree with Trip. The risks involved with this move are too great for an ISDG IMHO. On another point, like Trip said, it is very difficult to get large groups of people to do what one person thinks is a good move, even if it seems obvious to you that it is the best move (exa: the first Persia War in the SPDG).

	17-02-2003 17:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Normal game or not, the superpowers are decided by 1000 BC. At that point it's war or death. There's simply too much effort and thinking going into every move. Maximum efficiency is attained, and a simple mistake can mean the downfall of a team. Attacking a civ to get an early GA might be one of those mistakes. I'm not sure who you're playing in your MP games and get them to waste their GAs, but we will be facing the best Civ 3 players in the world. They will not make such a decision lightly, knowing that the potential response is bound to be well-planned, effective and deadly. I personally would not risk such a move in this game. Too important and too much risk. Just my 2¢, of course. Take with a pinch of salt, as always.

hi ,

well ones in a while there are nations who flex some power later on , like the americans , they have a later golden age and the F-15 , .....

dont go for early golden age , the best is to go when most cities have size 12-14 and have factories in them

have a nice day

	17-02-2003 20:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Once we have our UU, we are unlikey to be targeted for elimination, until Knights.

With this UU, we can target others for elimination instead.

I do remeber using a stack of about 15 Numidian mercs, and attacking my MP opponent, taking 2 of his cities before renegotiating... (I was the smallest and had only 5 cities, so I had to) Then that damn game crashed, but I learned one thing: Carthage is good for the aggressive, and really fun!

	17-02-2003 20:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat With this UU, we can target others for elimination instead. I do remeber using a stack of about 15 Numidian mercs, and attacking my MP opponent, taking 2 of his cities before renegotiating... (I was the smallest and had only 5 cities, so I had to) Then that damn game crashed, but I learned one thing: Carthage is good for the aggressive, and really fun!

hi ,

, we could get lucky indeed with this UU , ...

but this brings forth another Q , .... what about GA , .... we should not trigger it at the start , .....

have a nice day

	17-02-2003 21:05									#35
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You are right about that.
But if we are going to war in the start, the GA will benefit us in winning that war. The production increase is sufficient to build lotsa mercs when entering berserk mode.
Alas... if the war is not a success, it's a wasted GA.

It's difficult to save the GA when playing Carthage, cause we would need to benefit from the 2,2,1 stats on this unit in the early game. It gives us a conquerer trait, better than archer rushes.

Btw, I argumented for playing Japan. Nice traits and so on.
The Samurai is a 4,4,2 unit and a GA could appear in the Medieval Age. It's a killer!

	17-02-2003 22:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Trip By my guesstimate, things will be fairly predictable for the most part, as far as decisions like that go. That's how the PTW DG has been, and I don't see any great shifts of thought for the ISDG. Of course, I could always be surprised. In your example, if Civ A knows that holding off Civ B will require a major investment of time and resources, and Civs C, D, E, F, G and H (made up of the best of the best ) will gain an advantage over Civ A, what might Civ A's logic be for attacking Civ B to make them use their GA? Screwing yourself over just to do the same to another civ is not good policy. Also keep in mind we're dealing with teams here... convincing a large group of people to go out on a limb like that is very hard to do, unless you have an entire team of reckless people, which I don't see as likely. As far as dealing with Civ A after Civ B has gotten into its GA, obviously Civ B has the advantage at that point... during their GA, Civ B will logically build up 8+ Archers/Horsemen/Swordsmen/UUs and crush Civ A when this stack reaches its destination. Civ A will either: prepare to meet this threat, consequently losing time and resources for its REX by building lots o' units, and putting itself behind the rest of the civs expansion-wise. Or, it will continue as would as if it were at peace, and will be wiped out by Civ B's über-stack. Either way, Civ A will feel the wrath.

Civ A will only feel it if they are indeed a neighbor of Civ B; if they wondered through meandering territories to get to Civ B then retribution against Civ A will happen AFTER the GA has past. Also, Civ A doesn't have to worry about WW (missing from MP for known reasons) so the only thing they have to worry about is retribution from Civ B; big deal! Fighting a defensive war will still allow for growth for Civ A while Civ B goes all out or them Civ B will have higher costs associated with this war than will Civ A.


So some of the factors such as where are our neighbors and who's doing what to provoke an early GA should come into our thought process. It may be best just to make sure we have units available to fend of any would be warrior wanderer before they could trigger a GA. Any and all reasonable precautions should be taken to prevent an early GA.

	17-02-2003 22:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat You are right about that. But if we are going to war in the start, the GA will benefit us in winning that war. The production increase is sufficient to build lotsa mercs when entering berserk mode. Alas... if the war is not a success, it's a wasted GA. It's difficult to save the GA when playing Carthage, cause we would need to benefit from the 2,2,1 stats on this unit in the early game. It gives us a conquerer trait, better than archer rushes.

BTW the stats on the Merc is 2,3,1; a much better defender.

	18-02-2003 00:10									#38
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hi ,

we should hold out the GA as long as possible , at least until republic or so , ....

we have to be carefull that an other player does not attack us just to provoke a GA with us to early , ....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 00:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , we should hold out the GA as long as possible , at least until republic or so , .... we have to be carefull that an other player does not attack us just to provoke a GA with us to early , .... have a nice day

hi, panag,

If you wish to insist on your late GA strategy, fine, that's your right. We certainly can prevent having premature GA by using only warriors to protect our cities, later triggering our GA by wonders. The only problem is that we may never get a chance to enjoy our "properly timed" GA, if another team storms our warrior defended cities. Losing a city or two early in the game may easily be much more deadly than having premature GA. Premature GA are better than no GA.

Anyway, do everybody a favour, please (this applies to everyone!), and try placing your GA related suggestions into the relevant thread. The thread on the first technologies is not the one you are looking for. Let's try to keep things organized. On second thought, I have to admit that the GA issue is related to Bronze Working which will probably be our first research goal. Forget what I said then, please. I would still prefer having the same thing said just once and not repeatedly all over the forum, but I admit that it is not obvious which thread this discussion belongs to.

Also, if I may say so... it would often be helpful if you actually do the job rather than just suggest that someone does the job. It's better to propose how to avoid premature GA with Mercs than to repeat many times we should be careful about that. It's better to actually do a background check on a new member than to suggest someone does it.

Thank you and have a nice day.

	18-02-2003 02:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack hi, panag, If you wish to insist on your late GA strategy, fine, that's your right. We certainly can prevent having premature GA by using only warriors to protect our cities, later triggering our GA by wonders. The only problem is that we may never get a chance to enjoy our "properly timed" GA, if another team storms our warrior defended cities. Losing a city or two early in the game may easily be much more deadly than having premature GA. Premature GA are better than no GA. Anyway, do everybody a favour, please (this applies to everyone!), and try placing your GA related suggestions into the relevant thread. The thread on the first technologies is not the one you are looking for. Let's try to keep things organized. On second thought, I have to admit that the GA issue is related to Bronze Working which will probably be our first research goal. Forget what I said then, please. I would still prefer having the same thing said just once and not repeatedly all over the forum, but I admit that it is not obvious which thread this discussion belongs to. Also, if I may say so... it would often be helpful if you actually do the job rather than just suggest that someone does the job. It's better to propose how to avoid premature GA with Mercs than to repeat many times we should be careful about that. It's better to actually do a background check on a new member than to suggest someone does it. Thank you and have a nice day.

hi ,

"backgroundcheck" , ..... meaning to check out who he was , ....

panag does not need to check him because panag knows him and panag clicks on the profile of people to learn who they are , instead of asking in a forum , ....

there is the option search , ......

its better that some people look in the miror before they look at others , .....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 02:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by panag "backgroundcheck" , ..... meaning to check out who he was , .... panag does not need to check him because panag knows him and panag clicks on the profile of people to learn who they are , instead of asking in a forum , .... there is the option search , ...... its better that some people look in the miror before they look at others , .....

Jesus Christ... do I have a need for this?

Have you noticed my little effort getting this place organized today? Perhaps, you might wish to reconsider your suggestion regarding the mirror stuff?

You might have not noticed, but actually doing things takes a lot of time. BetaHound and many others are spending considerable time to get all this up and running. We do not have time to do everything ourselves. Sure there is the search option and sure there is the possibility of investigating every new membership applicant. But how are we supposed to manage all that ourselves and still have some life? BetaHound is asking for help in that New Member forum, 'cause he can't do everything on his own, jumping like mad between here and the UN forum at 1BC. His time resources are limited, just as mine, just as everyone's else.

If you really checked the new user and found him ok, why didn't you post something like

hi ,

I have searched for the past posts of this user and he seemed to be okay to me. He posts a lot here and here, especially during the last few weeks, and has been a Poly member since then and then.

have a nice day


Now, that would be helpful. Suggesting an obvious thing is not.

Have I expressed myself clearly this time?

	18-02-2003 02:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Jesus Christ... do I have a need for this? Have you noticed my little effort getting this place organized today? Perhaps, you might wish to reconsider your suggestion regarding the mirror stuff? You might have not noticed, but actually doing things takes a lot of time. BetaHound and many others are spending considerable time to get all this up and running. We do not have time to do everything ourselves. Sure there is the search option and sure there is the possibility of investigating every new membership applicant. But how are we supposed to manage all that ourselves and still have some life? BetaHound is asking for help in that New Member forum, 'cause he can't do everything on his own, jumping like mad between here and the UN forum at 1BC. His time resources are limited, just as mine, just as everyone's else. If you really checked the new user and found him ok, why didn't you post something like hi , I have searched for the past posts of this user and he seemed to be okay to me. He posts a lot here and here, especially during the last few weeks, and has been a Poly member since then and then. have a nice day Now, that would be helpful. Suggesting an obvious thing is not. Have I expressed myself clearly this time?

hi ,

you might not have noticed but there are people who are helping in a way that it does not get a high profile , or maybe the helping of them is not vissible true posts or so , .....

if you want help you should ask so , there shall be plenty of people who shall come forward , ...

each with his or her style of posting , ..... and those people dont need to be told how or what they should post , .......

you could have asked that some one checks out each member instead of going on and on about a post that had a couple of words in it , .....

if you dont have time then you should use the time you have with care , .....

have a nice day


panag > continues to play Carthage and study the effects of its GA , ..... like the past three days , ......

	18-02-2003 02:57									#43
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:shrug:

Nevermind, panag, forget it.

* vondrack decides to use the time he has with care

	18-02-2003 09:22									#44
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Basic game theory tells me that no other team will attempt to trigger a GA without risking annihilation, and making our life difficult in the latter games is no use for someone who's dead!

What I would fear is that perhaps an offshore civ might send a trireme with any crappy unit and trigger our GA when it is still difficult to conduct a seaborne counterattack.

I find it highly unlikely that this might happen but the possibilty nevertheless exists.

	18-02-2003 10:11									#45
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Expect all things.

Do the unexpected.

	18-02-2003 10:40									#46
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But make sure you don't lose.

	18-02-2003 15:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen What I would fear is that perhaps an offshore civ might send a trireme with any crappy unit and trigger our GA when it is still difficult to conduct a seaborne counterattack.

That's an interesting idea.
If I were the triggering civ, I would fear that the triggered civ will use its GA to build up and attack me before I can get out of Despotism myself.
Also, any civs with ancient age units would fear that if they tried such a thing, we'd do the same to them.

In any case, if we see such a thing coming (we'll have an early warning of at least two turns in advance), we could always turn city defense to fortified warriors, and perhaps switch production to city walls, if we don't have enough warriors handy to hold off the attackers.

	18-02-2003 16:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber That's an interesting idea. If I were the triggering civ, I would fear that the triggered civ will use its GA to build up and attack me before I can get out of Despotism myself. Also, any civs with ancient age units would fear that if they tried such a thing, we'd do the same to them. In any case, if we see such a thing coming (we'll have an early warning of at least two turns in advance), we could always turn city defense to fortified warriors, and perhaps switch production to city walls, if we don't have enough warriors handy to hold off the attackers.

hi ,

yep , there are some players on the other teams who love to do this , ..... but after a while you know them and , ..... you try to provoke an early GA with them , .....

have a nice day

	19-02-2003 04:13									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber That's an interesting idea. If I were the triggering civ, I would fear that the triggered civ will use its GA to build up and attack me before I can get out of Despotism myself. Also, any civs with ancient age units would fear that if they tried such a thing, we'd do the same to them. In any case, if we see such a thing coming (we'll have an early warning of at least two turns in advance), we could always turn city defense to fortified warriors, and perhaps switch production to city walls, if we don't have enough warriors handy to hold off the attackers.

Still, ancient-era amphibious invasions are rather dificult to perform. That's what makes this strategy so obnoxious. They would trigger our GA and even with those advantages we might not be able to knock that civ out of the game. This of course would not be a problem against a civ in the same continent. I just played a game with Carthage (vs the AI mind you), got war declared by Rome and Germany and I beat the living beejesus out of them.

	19-02-2003 04:17									#50
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That's a possibility, but then what? Put only warriors in coastal cities for defense?

	19-02-2003 04:21									#51
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You know, going after a civ (to destroy or mame them) completely on the basis of revenge is not very smart. We have to look at the comparitive strengths of that civ at the time and that of the remain civs; not to mention where they are located in relation to us.

There is a lot of thought that must be discussed before retribution is to be meeted.

	19-02-2003 05:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 You know, going after a civ (to destroy or mame them) completely on the basis of revenge is not very smart.

I did that once, playing the good old boardgame called Shogun . Well, one opponent had literally backstabbed me one turn after our new treaty. It was a question of honour... I lost many men and kokus. Neither of us won the game. Yeah, but that was Japan. I had to follow the Bushido.

	19-02-2003 05:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber In any case, if we see such a thing coming (we'll have an early warning of at least two turns in advance), we could always turn city defense to fortified warriors, and perhaps switch production to city walls, if we don't have enough warriors handy to hold off the attackers.

Humans aren't going to attempt an attack without large unit stacks, even in the early game. If I see a stack of 5 vet swords coming, I certainly don't want to be defending that city with warriors. If we attempt to stop such an attack with large numbers of warriors, all we will be doing is training their army while wasting our production by building units that keep on getting killed while the enemy takes fewer losses.

One idea to stop the GA trigger is to guard cities with warriors, but keep Merc(s) one square away on a road so they can fortify in the city in event of a legitimate threat. But keep in mind we would need a minimum of 2 warriors in every city for this to work, or any "guard our cities with warriors scheme" as we can't risk losing a city because of one unlucky RNG roll. Devoting this much production and unit upkeep (with this many units there will be upkeep, even in despotism, when you add in the workers, settlers, mercs and offensive units we also want) will simply crimp out economy to much to eb worthwhile.

Because of this I do not like this idea unless our specific goal is to connect the iron and upgraded them to swords for early rush on someone. If we do want to go for this kind of rush, then we better research IW quickly so we dont find out we have no accessible Iron and have a bunch of useless warriors in our cities.

	19-02-2003 05:58									#54
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Wasting support and production costs on building Warriors to try and prevent a GA is wasteful, and something I wouldn't support.

	19-02-2003 07:47									#55
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If we are considering avoiding a GA through avoiding NMs, can I remind everyone that Swords have a defense of 2?

	19-02-2003 09:24									#56
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Swords are good if you have iron, but they're pretty expensive for defenders the quality of Spearmen.

	19-02-2003 11:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Swords are good if you have iron, but they're pretty expensive for defenders the quality of Spearmen.

But, they have the added advantage of being able to counter attack any would be Warrior or Archer attacks.

As I've alluded to earlier as has CiverDan; we should keep a few Mercs inside the cities until trouble shows up, and then access the situation. If it is feasible we could then move the Mercs just outside the city, out of range of the would be attackers and either do a combination of attacking with the Swordsmen and defending with them to thwart the enemy's move. If they come at us with a full-out attack then we would have no choice but to defend with the Mercs, otherwise we should do fine with the attack/defend scheme with the Swordsmen.

Go Team Apolyton!

	19-02-2003 11:53									#58
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Of course.

We'll deal with the situation as best as we can, but not until the situation actually presents itself.

If there's a way to defend our cities without using the Mercs and costing us our GA, then by all means, we'll go for it. However, I won't see Apolyton put herself in any kind of danger unnecessarily simply for the sake of avoiding a GA. If 2 Archers are coming and we have 4 Swordsmen and 2 Mercs nearby, then we can safely withdraw the Mercs, and let the Swordsmen do the dirty work. If they have 4 Horsemen and we have 1 Swordsmen and 2 Mercs, then you'd better believe those Mercs will be in the city.

	19-02-2003 12:17									#59
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No Doubt!

But, the question of being able to do this IS in the planning of our Civ. We have to build certain units and reasearch certain techs first in order to bring this plan to fruition. I don't think anyone would disagree with what you said above, but we must have the resources to do it. We must have iron and we must either build Warriors and the upgrade them to Swordsmen (best I think) or build them outright. Avoiding an early GA is important, that most people agree on; the question IS how much or how far are we willing to go to do this?

That is ultimately up to our Consuls to decide.

	19-02-2003 20:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Trip That's a possibility, but then what? Put only warriors in coastal cities for defense?

Not necessarily.
In an emergency, where we realize that someone is trying to force us into a GA, we could try a few emergency tactics.
We can count on an early warning in this case. In most maps, except in rare cases, we'd see the galley coming for at least one turn (if not two or three) since it has to end its movement on coast, and we'd have an additional turn of pre-warning because the galley will have to unload its troops to an empty tile first. With roads, we can reinforce the city that is in danger with a few more warriors.
We can also assume that any civ that tries this tactic will certainly not invest in more than one galley for this operation. Therefore, we can expect a shipload of two units at a time. If these two units aren't veteran swordsmen, we could defend the city with a few fortified warriors, and if its not positioned on a hill, we might consider building a wall as well (not fun, but certainly better than a GA in Despotism, especially when Mapmaking has already been invented and we're so close to Republic).

In any case, there's a very low chance that a civ from abroad will try this tactic (though we should still prepare for this), and even if they do, they'd have a rather short window of opportunity - starting from the time after they have finished researching Map Making, finished building their first galley, loaded it with troops and arrived at our shores, and ending when we enter Republic.