13-02-2003 13:02									#1
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Carthage starts out with Alphabit & Masonry. It's UU comes from Bronzeworking.

For the first Techs that we decide to work for, I suggest that we try to get Bronzeworking. Afterwards, we can hopefully trade to get all of the rest of the Lower Techs and then work at going for Monarchy as soon as possible.

If we play are cards right, we won't have to be in a position that would get us into a war until we have either almost made it to Monarchy or afterwards. That way, if we get involved in a War, we can hopefully have our GA NOT be while we are still in Despotism but at least while in Monarchy

I would, of course, like to se a Republican or Democratic GA, but that would be too much to really wish for. But we can atleast try to get the most from our GA, If and When it does come.

E_T

	13-02-2003 13:27									#2
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Researching Bronze Working first as Carthage is a no-brainer.

Researching Iron Working next is typically a good idea, but it depends...

With 7-8 human civs in the game, it may not be optimal to bee-line for monarchy... as there's bound to be more than one team that will do the same.

The critical strategy in multiplayer seems to be to seek out technologies no-one else has, as at least that guarantees you won't be cut out of the loop (where otherwise you risk it).

So picking the paths least likely to be chosen by others has nice benefits.

I might add that Glory of War did pretty well in going for Horseback Riding right off the starting block and then techwhoring it when they got it in the inter-team game. It's a good example, among a number of others.

	13-02-2003 15:34									#3
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Agreed, there is very little doubt about going for BW first, playing Carthage. It is the safe way to do things.

The only exception might be if there were several other teams starting with BW (I am not sure about the final choices, thus speaking generally only)... we might then try gambling a bit, go for something else, and hope for getting BW from a trade (pretending we have been researching BW from Turn 1, thus willing to pay only a moderate price for it). BW is such a no brainer for Carthage that we would hardly be suspected we did not go for it... but this is of course based upon assumption that there is a fairly good chance of getting BW from a smart trade. If we decide to try this, a beaker-cheap tech would have to be chosen instead, to allow for a quick BW catch-up, should our early exploration rule out the possibility of trading for BW.

	13-02-2003 17:20									#4
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Once we have our UU, we are unlikey to be targeted for elimination, until Knights.

The only chance other teams have for an ancient time war against us, is before we get Mercs.
Dont delay...BW first, then we are reasonably safe.

Second tech choice completely depends on our diplomatic efforts.
Find out what other teams are researching.
Reseach something no one else has, and make as many future agreements as possible.....ie If you study this, then we will study that, and trade when we get them.

Regs

	13-02-2003 18:06									#5
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There is only one Scientific civ so far (CDG, Persia), so Bronze Working is probably the best bet.

Mathmatics, Warrior Code, and Iron Working would all be good second techs. Mathmatics probably will give much more trading opportunities as only the French would be able to research it as fast, and the French probably wouldn't as Spear + Cats aren't as effective as Mercs + Cats. Persia is likely to go for Iron Working right off. The problem with Mathmatics would be we put ourselves at further risk of an early GA.

	13-02-2003 18:56									#6
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One of th ereasons that I had thought of the Monarchy route, was incase one of the other teams was to use a strategy of forcing us into a very early GA. If while still REXing, and we are aprocing Monarchy, we can get there sooner, if afterwards, then we get the added benifit of not being in Despotism when it does happen. This might also prevent someone from trying that on us, if we are so close to Monarchy.

It's just an idea for discussion.

E_T

	13-02-2003 19:27									#7
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To protect our GA, we should use mostly Warriors as garrison units. 3 Warriors cost the same as one Merc, and a 'throwaway' unit won't have a chance to get lucky and take the city the first turn if there are 3 units defending instead of 1.

We just keep a reserve of Mercs garrisoning central cities that can respond to more legitimate threats if they arise.

	14-02-2003 02:34									#8
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Aeson, I wouldn't worry too much about being attacked in early game, mainly because the cost to the attacker is higher then with attacking someone with spears. Unlesss another team feels they have to attack due to lack of land, I would not be too concerned. Anyone attemping a rush will attack someone else if they can help it.

	14-02-2003 03:04									#9
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We're Commerical; I think it's a no-brainer to reserach writing at 1 beaker a turn for 40 turns (with science at 20% perhaps droping to 10%) acquiring this realtively expensive tech cheaply.

In the mean time, we try to acquire other techs at reasonable cost, which we would have the money to buy.

Unless France or another Commerical civ is on our landmass, we should still beat everyone else to Writing and trade it for a couple of techs.

	14-02-2003 04:37									#10
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The threat of someone purposely triggering our GA is one we should plan to minimize in any case.

If a far away civ gets a warrior to our borders on the end of an exploration run and sees a Merc they may just suicide their warrior to try and waste our GA. Either way they gain something on us (a mostly wasted GA, or an incredibly lucky victory) if they do try, and they may be far enough away that we can't feasibly retaliate.

In a Demo game setting this is probably not too likely, but would really bite if we let it happen. It's preventable, and so we should take the proper measures to keep it from being a possibility.

-----------

Back on tech, I don't think we can rely on our neighbors to trade us Bronze Working. If you were starting next to Carthage would you trade/sell BW to them when they had asked for it? Asking would denote that we don't have it, and possibly that we aren't researching it. Might as well say 'Archer rush us!'

In a Demo game setting the Archer rush is probably much less likely, but again we shouldn't risk it when it's perfectly avoidable. BW takes 14 (river + Irrigating a bonus food source) to 19 (no river or bonus food source) turns (assuming no contact) to research on Standard/Monarch and will almost guarantee our ancient era survival.

	14-02-2003 05:19									#11
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I agree, BW at maximum research is the most suitable opening for us. I have been rushed by a Mil civ which started 10 tiles from me while I was REXing. He built temple, barracks, then Archers and Chariots. It was not pretty.

	14-02-2003 05:33									#12
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BW first to ensure our survival, then writting after to techwhore. Writting is the key to the ancient age as RP discovered. Plus, if we are by our selves, then Map Making would be up next and easily atainable.

	14-02-2003 07:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Once we have our UU, we are unlikey to be targeted for elimination, until Knights.

Not targetted for ELIMINATION, perhaps, but I think we might well be targetted for GA-wasting. I certainly agree with Aeson's points above.

If we must go Carthage, then yes, BW first. But we must use those Mercs carefully. An early GA could however be of some use if we were forces into it - allowing us to build some nice Wonders early on and get, if nothing else, the Cultural advantage. The Wheel would be my choice to acquire after BW due to revealing Horses and getting units with retreat. In my experience, Horses are rarer than Iron, and attack 2 units with retreat and 2 moves are VASTLY more useful than attack 3 units without retreat.

	14-02-2003 07:42									#14
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Hopefully by the time the decision on the second tech needs to be made, we will at least know who our neighbors are. Then we can perhaps coordinate research with them, or at least know what techs they will have access to research to know how to direct our own.

	16-02-2003 06:07									#15
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I agree BW first. As far as trying to prevent someone from "wasting" our GA, I worry if could be dangerous to purposely put a less powerful defensive unit in our cities, especially against Egypt or Persia. One possible solution is to station them just outside the cities and bring them if a real threat arises. Back to techs. Im MP I always go for monarchy first, after getting Iron Working and Horseback Riding. Quicker to monarchy=more trade which means more science and money. People are going to be trading so much that the Great Library has less of an effect IMHO.

	17-02-2003 07:21									#16
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If we are not gonna use the UU to defend, its as good as not having them. Just defend with it and if anyone attacks us intentionally to trigger early GA, we'll have a better start in ancient era thats all.

Declaring war early has some risks involved in it. As you saw from PTW DEMO game everyone wasn't ballsy enough to try out an super early wars. And NDE's war declaration even then, came pretty much a surprise to everyone.

i also disagree with joncnunn's idea of lowering tech rate. Humans prefer tech for tech trades much more and falling behind tech could be bad in the first few turns.

Ancient age is the most crucial period in MP. In SP you CAN come out on top even though you are not strong at any age. I doubt saving GA for later helps any. I've played six games with 4 of my friends in hotseat and they all havent made it to industrial age. Not to mention that noone ever got to use calvary...

	17-02-2003 07:29									#17
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Yes, he's right. The game is decided almost entirely in the Ancient and some in the Middle Ages. We have to use every advantage possible to gain an edge early, or face destruction or defeat.

	17-02-2003 09:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by E_T One of th ereasons that I had thought of the Monarchy route, was incase one of the other teams was to use a strategy of forcing us into a very early GA. If while still REXing, and we are aprocing Monarchy, we can get there sooner, if afterwards, then we get the added benifit of not being in Despotism when it does happen. This might also prevent someone from trying that on us, if we are so close to Monarchy. It's just an idea for discussion. E_T

That's the way I think. When ever I play against Carth (or any other civ with an early available UU) in an MP game I ALWAYS force them into a GA ASAP. This is one of my core strategies. If they build too many units during the GA I get a kick out of watching his units being disbanded due to the lack of gold at the end/or soon after the end of his GA. I've seen it happen numerous times in MP games.

	17-02-2003 09:36									#19
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To avoid this, we must make ourselves a very unattractive target. 2 or 3 Numidian Mercanaries per city will make anyone think about the potential consequences of declaring war early on Carthage.

	17-02-2003 09:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip To avoid this, we must make ourselves a very unattractive target. 2 or 3 Numidian Mercanaries per city will make anyone think about the potential consequences of declaring war early on Carthage.

It really doesn't matter how "attactive" we are in terms of war in the game. The triggering our GA by any civ (even if they take some losses from it) will decrease the production/science/gold we would have gotten from it if we had had decent numbers of cities and/or had our Government in Monarchy at the time. This will hurt us as compared to the other civs. If we were to play only against one other, then yes, Carth is ALREADY very unattractive to begin a war with so early on; most likely doom for the attacking civ!

Since we will be playing with so many others, we have to do what we can to prevent a premature GA. Other than researching Iron Working in order to use Swordsmen as our basic defense (instead of the Merc's), we need to get to Monarchy very soon.

Using the Sword as a defender is not really a bad thing since he can easily turn on would be attacker's.

Preventing an early GA should be our TOP priority.

	17-02-2003 09:59									#21
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If we get into a 'real' war, then a GA is assured. We should be ready to accept that. What we need to do is take steps to try and prevent that from occurring to begin with. From the PTW DG, I can say that forcing an early GA wasn't exactly on the top of the teams' minds, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Is it a concern? Yes. But I don't think that as soon as we're found by another civ's scouting warrior they'll attack and trigger our GA. Mercs are nearly invincible on offense and defense until swords come into play, so I only see a civ trying to trigger our GA in very special circumstances. Teams will be in this game for the long run. Gambling on attacking a well-grounded civ with lots of mercs is a bad way to secure your team's future playing...

	17-02-2003 10:30									#22
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Trip, what about illogical / irresponsible play?

Gotta be ready for anything.

	17-02-2003 10:40									#23
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I'm playing the odds here.

Like I said, we should always be prepared for the possibility, but having our GA early isn't that bad. Oftentimes, a MP/PBEM game will be decided long before most civs have had their GA. It's not as if we'll be crippled if they manage to throw a curve ball at us. Another civ attacking us to trigger our GA has a lot more to lose than we do.

	17-02-2003 10:41									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Trip But I don't think that as soon as we're found by another civ's scouting warrior they'll attack and trigger our GA.

I would and do EVERY time I play against a civ with an early available UU. Maybe I'm the ONLY one with that strategy; but it works wonders for me.

When I play as Greece I usually let the availability of Iron determine whether or not I protect myself from an early UU with a Swordsman and/or go after Monarchy ASAP. That's not to say that I dont have a Hoplite garrisoned in my cities, in order to detract would be attackers. But I would often move my Hoplite out of the cities in the face of an imminent attack if I needed to prevent an early GA.

	17-02-2003 10:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Oftentimes, a MP/PBEM game will be decided long before most civs have had their GA.

In a 'normal' MP game yes; but this is not a 'normal' game. You will not find any of the teams dropping out due to a bad start position or an early loss of a settler or another unit. This is an Intersite game; there's a lot of pride and sh*t talking authority on the line here!

	17-02-2003 11:10									#26
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Normal game or not, the superpowers are decided by 1000 BC.

At that point it's war or death. There's simply too much effort and thinking going into every move. Maximum efficiency is attained, and a simple mistake can mean the downfall of a team. Attacking a civ to get an early GA might be one of those mistakes. I'm not sure who you're playing in your MP games and get them to waste their GAs, but we will be facing the best Civ 3 players in the world. They will not make such a decision lightly, knowing that the potential response is bound to be well-planned, effective and deadly. I personally would not risk such a move in this game. Too important and too much risk.

Just my 2¢, of course. Take with a pinch of salt, as always.

	17-02-2003 11:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I'm not sure who you're playing in your MP games and get them to waste their GAs, but we will be facing the best Civ 3 players in the world. They will not make such a decision lightly, knowing that the potential response is bound to be well-planned, effective and deadly. I personally would not risk such a move in this game. Too important and too much risk. Just my 2¢, of course. Take with a pinch of salt, as always.

I guess I'm not making myself clear to you.

I do not "get them to waste their GAs"; rather I force it upon them by attacking their UU! It is really simple, especially if they don't consider an early GA a problem. In fact most players (in MP) initially thank me for allowing a GA to happen for them; the poor souls only later realize that much was lost in those early years due to an early GA.

Your speak about "facing the best Civ 3 palyers in the world" is exactly what I'm talking about. The best players will attempt to force a civ into an early GA. And likewise the best players will do their best to prevent it!

I hope that is clear now.

There's a little pepper in my comments!

	17-02-2003 11:39									#28
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I know what you're saying. Forcing an early GA on someone basically == making them waste their GA.

Yes, an early GA is bad. However, from the responses you seem to have gotten you weren't playing against players who knew how to deal with the situation anyways.

If a team attacks another team forcing a GA upon them in this game, what do you think the attacked team will be doing for the next 20 turns? Probably building up Horsemen/Swordsmen to go pay that initial civ back. It's bad later on to not have it, but at the moment it can be good for revenge.

	17-02-2003 11:54									#29
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True, but If Civ A attacks Civ B and Civ B then has an early GA and subsequently goes after Civ A; successful or not, Civ's C,D,E,F,G & H will have the advantage over Both Civ A & B! And it's not like Civ A has to commit a lot of resources to screwing with your GA; so assuming that you can anilhilate him with your ensuing GA is not a good assumption, especially since these are the best of the best of the best, sir!

You cannot count on other Civs to use complete logic in this game; in fact you can count on logic being tossed aside for many differing reasons, with one being surprise! A player doing something that you do not expect has a greater chance to defeat you than doing exactly what you expect.

	17-02-2003 12:28									#30
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By my guesstimate, things will be fairly predictable for the most part, as far as decisions like that go. That's how the PTW DG has been, and I don't see any great shifts of thought for the ISDG. Of course, I could always be surprised.

In your example, if Civ A knows that holding off Civ B will require a major investment of time and resources, and Civs C, D, E, F, G and H (made up of the best of the best ) will gain an advantage over Civ A, what might Civ A's logic be for attacking Civ B to make them use their GA? Screwing yourself over just to do the same to another civ is not good policy. Also keep in mind we're dealing with teams here... convincing a large group of people to go out on a limb like that is very hard to do, unless you have an entire team of reckless people, which I don't see as likely.

As far as dealing with Civ A after Civ B has gotten into its GA, obviously Civ B has the advantage at that point... during their GA, Civ B will logically build up 8+ Archers/Horsemen/Swordsmen/UUs and crush Civ A when this stack reaches its destination. Civ A will either: prepare to meet this threat, consequently losing time and resources for its REX by building lots o' units, and putting itself behind the rest of the civs expansion-wise. Or, it will continue as would as if it were at peace, and will be wiped out by Civ B's über-stack. Either way, Civ A will feel the wrath.