16-02-2003 04:45									#271
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hehe. You know, you get used to it.

we're getting sidetracked here, back on topic.
I feel that around europe there IS a growing sentiment of anti-immigration. I think it is rather understandable, as people fear that the cultural identity of their surrounding is being changed.
I hate the racist part of it, though.

	16-02-2003 04:54									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Are you serious? Obviously Sharon´s crimes have wide public support in Israel.

Durmg those "war crimes", There were about 300,000 Israelis protesting the incident. There was no visible reaction in the Arab world, however. Nor was there any arab outcry when Muslim militiamen attacked two palestinian refugee camps in 1985, killing more than 600.

Funny, that, don't you think?

	16-02-2003 05:00									#273
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The main problem is an integration problem. France has long been an immigration country, which welcomed Italians in the 1900's, Poles in the 1920's, Spaniards and Potuguese in the 1960's, Arabians in the 1970's, and Africans right now, with serious limitations against immigration for mor than 15 years. (AFAIK, Malians are the bulk new immigrants in France these days).
All minorities have been quickly integrated in France, mostly by forgetting their old values, and embracing completely the French identity. Racism against those immigrants did exist, but was short lived in comparison to what we see with Arabs.
The biggest problem with the Arabic community in France is its geographical concentration (in some areas of the cities, or in some particular suburbs of big conurbations), the cultural unwillingness to accept French identity, the racism they encounter from the police and other French citizens. This is a self-sustained dynamics which is very difficult to exit from, and all attempts so far have failed.
Germany has a similar problem (namely, a structurated Turkish community), but has much less tradition of integration.

I don't think it is a problem with immigration as such, even though immigration is accused of being guilt by all right-wing parties (and a much bigger part of the public opinion)

	16-02-2003 05:04									#274
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This is a grave problem, you know.

	16-02-2003 05:13									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Funny, that, don't you think?

The only funny thing is that anybody defends Sharon. The guy is murdering civilians every few days, he really deserves to be hanged, drawn and quartered, together with a considerable number of his camp followers.

But what do the Zionists, and their American spineless serfs complain about? They complain about Belgium hinting at the fact that it is a shame that Sharon is still alive, let alone in power...

	16-02-2003 05:21									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It's often forgotten here also, that Arabs are targetted x 100 in racists attacks than Jews. Especially after 9/11.

Umm, not quite. According to the FBI, in 2001, while there was a huge jump in Anti-Islamic incidents (IIRC from the news, most of the increase "backlash" lasted the first six months or so after 9/11), there were about 500 anti-Islamic incidents compared to just over 1000 anti-Jewish Incidents during that time period.

	16-02-2003 05:25									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Umm, not quite. According to the FBI, in 2001, while there was a huge jump in Anti-Islamic incidents (IIRC from the news, most of the increase "backlash" lasted the first six months or so after 9/11), there were about 500 anti-Islamic incidents compared to just over 1000 anti-Jewish Incidents during that time period.

Well, probably if someone distributes leaflets saying he doesn´t like Sharon, this is counted as an 'anti-Jewish incident'.

Though you make it sound as if the Reichskristallnacht is about to break out in the United States.

	16-02-2003 05:31									#278
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you'd just like that to happen wouldn't you?

	16-02-2003 05:32									#279
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Comrade Clockmaker,

No composita allowed please.

	16-02-2003 05:42									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel you'd just like that to happen wouldn't you?

It has happened to the Palestinians every day, for decades, but that doesn´t seem to matter much.

Do I detect some sort of a double standard here?

	16-02-2003 05:52									#281
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Oh, you're crying.

	16-02-2003 05:53									#282
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Comrade Tribune :
I am slightly pro-Palestinian, but you have to understand there is no possible comparison between Kristallnacht and what happens to the Palestinian people.
Kristallnacht was a deliberate attempt from Hitler to scare and humiliate the Jews, as well as instilling a sense of superiority in the German population. It served no tactical / strategical role whatsoever.
The Israeli attacks in Palestine are oriented towards killing alledged threats to the Israeli security. Sure, soldiers there do often humiliate the survivors, but this humiliation is not the purpose of these attacks when they are decided by whatever politician / general.

Your Israel-bashing makes pro-Palestinians look bad

	16-02-2003 05:57									#283
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Don't mind him, Spiffor. He's an angry anti-semitic troll.

You can ask anyone on the forum, even the least biased people, like Frogger, Ming, etc.

Still, thank you. All you've said represents my views completely.

	16-02-2003 06:01									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Kristallnacht was a deliberate attempt from Hitler to scare and humiliate the Jews, as well as instilling a sense of superiority in the German population.

Sounds precisely like Israeli policy to me. The goal being to get the Palestinians to evacuate, of course, so that finally the entire Westbank can be annexed, read: stolen.

Sharon is edging closer and closer toward this goal.

	16-02-2003 06:07									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Don't mind him, Spiffor. He's an angry anti-semitic troll.

Gets old.

	16-02-2003 06:14									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger The US' continued actions in this case resemble extortion more than a legitimate trade suit. It's an attempted strangulation by litigation.

No, it's let's dripple the Canadian Lumber industry
like a basketball until we trash it.

	16-02-2003 06:16									#287
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Wow, cool, tribune. Once you have a comic in your post, you're surely right.

	16-02-2003 06:26									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Wow, cool, tribune. Once you have a comic in your post, you're surely right.

It´s like the "We are the poor (pretty rich, actually), powerless (very influential, actually), disadvantaged (given special treatment, actually) minority, therefore we must be right."

	16-02-2003 06:31									#289
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Noone says about being poor disadvantaged and poor, though the fact that you tend to say that jews are very influential,given special treatment and that the US are the lackies of the zionists doesn't put you in a very good light. And I am taking about the things you've said in this thread only.

	16-02-2003 06:39									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel ...the fact that you tend to say that jews are very influential,given special treatment and that the US are the lackies of the zionists doesn't put you in a very good light.

How should telling the truth put me into a bad light?

About the special treatment: That Jews are the only people in the world that cannot be critizised (without the critic being called an anti-semite) is in itself special treatment, no?

	16-02-2003 06:44									#291
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In case you don't know, generalizations about any national group in the terms of "influential, privlidged" is called Racism.

You cannot eat the cake and leave it intact.

	16-02-2003 06:49									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Noone says about being poor disadvantaged and poor, though the fact that you tend to say that jews are very influential,given special treatment and that the US are the lackies of the zionists doesn't put you in a very good light. And I am taking about the things you've said in this thread only.

Part of the the problem is knowing where someones
loyalty lies. I have seen many times assumptions by
israel posters that Jewish nationals in other countries are israeli first and their loyality their home nation is a distant second. (I don't agree BTW)

Jewish People are just as responsible for sterotyping
Jewish people as anyone else.

	16-02-2003 06:49									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel In case you don't know, generalizations about any national group in the terms of "influential, privlidged" is called Racism.

Only if they are untrue.

	16-02-2003 06:52									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel In case you don't know, generalizations about any national group in the terms of "influential, privlidged" is called Racism. You cannot eat the cake and leave it intact.

Except when applied to White Anglo Saxon Persons.

	16-02-2003 06:54									#295
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quote: Only if they are untrue.

So basically, you agree that you're making a broad generalization about a certain nation. It's good to know that one can walk around the streets of Vienna, and proudly proclaim himself as a racist. You know, like in the old times.

	16-02-2003 06:59									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So basically, you agree that you're making a broad generalization about a certain nation. It's good to know that one can walk around the streets of Vienna, and proudly proclaim himself as a racist. You know, like in the old times.

So you say there are *NO* privileged ethnic groups, anywhere in the world? Because everybody who says so is a racist? You really want to uphold that viewpoint?

	16-02-2003 07:09									#297
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Nice try to change my question.

You've claimed that the jews are politically influetial, and have control of the government of the US, that is their, or to be more precise, our, "lackey".

By this, you've claimed that the jews possess an quality of some sort, each and every member of the nation. That is a generalization on a national/ethnic basis, also known as racism.

If you would like to point out that not each jew has that political influnce, but some sort of united political body that represents their interests, then you subscribe to tails of jewish global conspiracy ala The Protocols, which leaves you in the cold, too.

	16-02-2003 07:10									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel you'd just like that to happen wouldn't you?

I can't believe he's still here.

	16-02-2003 07:20									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Nice try to change my question. You've claimed that the jews are politically influetial, and have control of the government of the US, that is their, or to be more precise, our, "lackey".

Quote?

*YOU* have certainly claimed that it is 'racism' to say that *any* national group may be privileged. Now you try to retreat, because this is simply too silly to uphold.

What you really want to say is that it is ok to say that privileged ethnic groups exist, because to deny *that* would be ridiculous, but the moment someone says Jews in the US fit that pattern, he is a racist.

	16-02-2003 07:20									#300
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I've said that claiming the jews are politically influntial is racist.
The "jews being privileged" claim is just another blatant generalization on your part, though all I did say is that it combined with the other generalizations you make, puts you in a bad light.

However, since "jews are privileged" is just another nationality based generalization, and therefore, racist, I am willing to debate you on that, too.



EDITED : Crosspost.

Last edited by Az on 16-02-2003 at 07:28