14-02-2003 15:31									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Ned They really have no business being the judge and jury over other nations.

Ok, let's wait that all nations agree to something (see UN), let's wait in our corner, do nothing and complain about USA. Let us turn our head the other side when Serbs and Croats are killing each others and accept US criticism of being 'whiners' and 'non-doers'.
Yes, that would please you much more, I know.
We try peacefull and justice solutions, while you are more for unilateral, war solution tainted with some nasty oil smell.

That tribunal at least exists and if it leads to some strange and political results, like the Sharon case, it shows at least that some palestinians still believe in more peacefull solution than just blow-up. I know that many people would like to show pals as blood-loving killers, but it seems not all of them are. Is it that that anoys you most?

If that tribunal disapear and you remove ALL hope from the pals, what other solution will they have?
To give hope to people in order they do not become beasts, how is that promoting(is that the correct word?) terrorism.

	14-02-2003 15:33									#182
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And may I ask, what is exactely the difference between what Sadam did to the kurds and what your governement is doing to the palestinians ?

	14-02-2003 15:39									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz I would hope they would be honest and loyal Belguim citizens, worthy of the respect and trust of their fellow citizens regardless of their religion. Belgium just has higher moral values than you can understand, if you think you can bribe them.

I would hope they will be loyal to higher moral values than just a country. I hope that every citizen will be able to go against it's own country if that country is wrong (see Oskar Shindler).
I don't know if Belgium just has higher moral values , we just tried to. If it's proven we are wrong, I hope we will be able to admit it.

	14-02-2003 16:05									#184
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , they are obliged to help an other member , ...

An attack against one is an attack against all, AFAIK, not if one attacks, all should join.
AFAIK, Turkey hasn't even decided if they will let US use their bases.
The only member that has been attacked is US the 11 sept 2001. It was not by a state, but by terrorist based in Afghanistan. We helped them (we still have soldiers there).
Today US want to attack Iraq. There is (was) no link between Bagdad and Al-Qaida (at least before US decide to attack Iraq. After, you know the say: the enemies of my enemies are my friends), so the war against Iraq is not justified by 11 sept., it is just a US war.
We didn't help during the Vietnam war, we didn't help UK in the Falkland.
Does that nake us bad allies?

	14-02-2003 16:42									#185
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I find this quite amazing. A 183 post thread about Belgium, possibly the most boring country in the EU and one most people simply go through to get somewhere else.

One dubious legal decision (and the Belgians certainly don't have a monopoly on those!) and Belgium is suddenly controversial - brilliant!

Pity it won't do much to attract Israeli tourists but you can't win them all.

	14-02-2003 17:05									#186
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quote: I find this quite amazing. A 183 post thread about Belgium, possibly the most boring country in the EU and one most people simply go through to get somewhere else.

Could you tell why Belgium is as boring as you point it out to be????
-----

I have never seen so much cr*p in one thread....
And yes I live in Antwerp,Switzerland , recently this city has been turned into a warzone where shops have been burned down to the ground, public executions and the lot

sheesjjj,pfff

oh, btw, the diamants passing through here isn't as lucrative as you make it out to be...

	14-02-2003 17:13									#187
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quote: I have never seen so much cr*p in one thread....

You should read more threads.

	14-02-2003 17:18									#188
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, good point

	14-02-2003 17:23									#189
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quote: Originally posted by alva Could you tell why Belgium is as boring as you point it out to be????

I have been through Belgium once. It was flat and everyone looked bored. I have been to Ostend once. If you think Ostend is interesting you really should travel more.

I may well have missed something about Belgium, I probably have, hence the use of the word "possibly" in my post and I certainly wasn't trying to offend Belgians.

My point was that Belgium is a fairly long way down most people's list of places to go and even further down their list of 'countries that can change the world'. So why a strange and unenforceable decision by a Belgian court should be significant escapes me.

	14-02-2003 17:39									#190
	Re: Re: Re: Has Belgium gone mad? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Bush was right about Europe’s “International Courts” being nothing more then the kangaroo court of sycophants and leftist ideologues. They should be ignored with the derision they deserve. :doitnow:

Sure he is right. From his rightist POV.
We try to separate justice and politic, something rightists do not like.
With an independent court of justice, you are less free to create your own vilain?
Typical rightist view: my governement should not rule me, but rule others. Not really my concept of democracy. And this mentality produce the USA we know: very aggressive in foreign policy, trying to rule the world, tell others what they must do (Belgium! attack! sit! good, good dog Belgium).
And the biggest problem is that they are convinced everybody thinks that way...

	14-02-2003 17:51									#191
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Bush was right about Europe’s “International Courts” being nothing more then the kangaroo court of sycophants and leftist ideologues. They should be ignored with the derision they deserve. :doitnow:

one word : ENRON ...
efficient courts you have when it comes down to the current governement on your side of the atlantic
(which i am happy to say is enlarging as time passes)

	14-02-2003 17:57									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I also willing to bet that if the US did what the Belgians did and allowed universal jurisdiction over war crimes in US courts with US marhalls and prisons enforcing penalties, the hue and cry by the rest of the world would be great. We would be arresting a lot of former world leaders and military on the mere complaint of their political enemies. We even have the death penalty. I can imagine the stink if we were to arrest Putin and place him on trial because some Chechan filed a complaint. Just imagine the ramifications, especially if the court ordered him to be executed.

That is indeed the problem of that law. It is the point where you may find the leftist awkwardness: great idea, very bad implementation.
As it is, and even if it works, that court is not going to be a place of justice, but a place of political debate. Not the initial goal at all.
I hope we will abandon that idea soon and either come back with a better one or with a more feasable one.
Trust the belgians to find some weird solution with nobody losing face (we are specialists of surrealism).

	14-02-2003 18:04									#193
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis No jew in belgium has been threathened in any way...

*cough* *cough* *cough*
Sorry, something I my throat, continue... continue...

	14-02-2003 18:27									#194
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quote: Originally posted by panag TEL AVIV, Israel, Feb. 13 (UPI) -- IIsrael Radio commentator Yehiel Guttman put his reaction more concisely: "The Belgians are known for their anti-Semitism!" he snapped.

The black are know for their laziness, the jew are know for their greed, the arabs are know for their cowardice typical racist speach.

quote: Luc Walleyn, one of the lawyers representing the victims' families, described the decision as "a victory not only for the victims of Sabra and Chatilla, but for all victims of genocide or crimes against humanity. The ruling clearly shows the court's political independence."

Errr, he is the victims' lawyer. Since when does the lawyer of one part have to neutral?

quote: Chief Rabbi Israel Lau issued a statement saying: "The thought that a nation which stood by and watched when Jewish blood was spilled like water and ignored victims' cries, is now elevating itself to the position of world policeman is extremely outrageous.

Yes, we probably have to stand and watch when palestinian/serbian/croatian/rwandan/cuban blood is spilled and do nothing. So in the next years, we may still be accused of it. We didn't react in the past, so we are not allowed to react now. Forbidden to learn.

quote: President Moshe Katsav wrote the Belgian monarch Albert II that no one has the right to doubt Israel's ethical standards.

while in the other hand everyone has the right to doubt Belgium's ethical standards, after all: The Belgians are known for their anti-Semitism!.

	14-02-2003 18:42									#195
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French news agency report. Do whatever you want with it.

Belgium-blast
BRUSSELS - 13:25 GMT
Several hurt in Belgian blast

	14-02-2003 18:51									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Eli French news agency report. Do whatever you want with it. Belgium-blast BRUSSELS - 13:25 GMT Several hurt in Belgian blast

Do you have a link

	14-02-2003 19:35									#197
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No terrorism. Just gas exposion.
7 injured.

Attachment: ph01acb7.jpg
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	14-02-2003 20:05									#198
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis Not one shop has been burned .. that much i know ... And as long as our officers don't shoot anybody in the streets because they are throwing rocks i think a little modesty of your part should suit you well...

hi ,

shoresh , chaussee de waterloo 1050 bxl , .......

was in the news for days , .....

bye

	14-02-2003 20:08									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Dry Who said that? Nobody is going to teach nobody. It's all in your head or in your over-sensitivity. Don't you know that a person is innocent before proven guilty. To be sued does not mean to be guilty. Only the man of the street thinks that. Or do you think this is only valid in your country? Are you that insulting? We are the first to know that a commission about the behaviour of belgians (in congo, f.i.) done by belgians self is biased. All population was between laugh and shock. Should we deny the right of congolese to go to another independent court (if it exist), because "we, most virtuous people on earth, already have judge the case"? Why would it be different in other countries?

hi ,

if you would care to read some of the other posts you would get some idea of who talked about teaching who , ....

lets see , boutmans , we should place a frigate in front of the coast of Tel - Aviv and send some exocets if they dont listen , ....

gallant , we should ban the Jews from living in belgium , .....

etc , .... etc , ......

bye

	14-02-2003 20:09									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin but in the end your government and courts are still packed with hypocrites and bigots.

Whose isn't ?

	14-02-2003 20:11									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Dry An attack against one is an attack against all, AFAIK, not if one attacks, all should join. AFAIK, Turkey hasn't even decided if they will let US use their bases. The only member that has been attacked is US the 11 sept 2001. It was not by a state, but by terrorist based in Afghanistan. We helped them (we still have soldiers there). Today US want to attack Iraq. There is (was) no link between Bagdad and Al-Qaida (at least before US decide to attack Iraq. After, you know the say: the enemies of my enemies are my friends), so the war against Iraq is not justified by 11 sept., it is just a US war. We didn't help during the Vietnam war, we didn't help UK in the Falkland. Does that nake us bad allies?

hi ,

article four of the prime mandate of nato reads ; when a member feels there is a need to save guard its borders because , .... etc , ....

belgium signed it , point , its a justified call for help , they should not veto it like that , ....

bye

	14-02-2003 20:23									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Dry I would hope they will be loyal to higher moral values than just a country. I hope that every citizen will be able to go against it's own country if that country is wrong (see Oskar Shindler). I don't know if Belgium just has higher moral values , we just tried to. If it's proven we are wrong, I hope we will be able to admit it.

The post I replying to was saying the Diamond trade
in Belguim was Jewish and the Jewish people in Belguim
were Israeli and pull out of Belguim, if the court case
proceeded.

It was clearly nonsense and a slur on Belguim's citizens
was well as it's moral fibre.

I do however agree almost entirely with your post accept for the last paragraph.

Belguim does have higher moral values BECAUSE it
tries to. Actions speak louder that words.

	14-02-2003 20:28									#203
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In most people's book "moral values" includes keeping your word and not breaking treaties.

	14-02-2003 20:36									#204
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NATO is a defensive organisation... if one of its members declares war on another country without prior consulting well ...

Besides, turkey has already a large part of its military present along its southern borders... you know, the kurds live there ...

And for another thing, a large part of the american reinforcements are being shipped to the gulf via Antwerp. As it is stipulated by the NATO treaty the Belgian governement gives free passage to these troops.
So we abide by nato's rules and we don't twist them into our advantage each time we have a political reason to do so.

	14-02-2003 20:39									#205
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , if you would care to read some of the other posts you would get some idea of who talked about teaching who , .... lets see , boutmans , we should place a frigate in front of the coast of Tel - Aviv and send some exocets if they dont listen , .... gallant , we should ban the Jews from living in belgium , ..... etc , .... etc , ...... bye

Yes, I have read those part (a little too long, I've skipped some parts).
I still don't know what to think about it. Truth? Propaganda? Probably a little bit of both. Truth, but with only one point of view.
The opinion that Israel behave badly in occupied territory is widespread here, and ressurgence of anti-semitism is of course linked to it.
I would like to answer this longer and try to describe how it's difficult to keep his head cool between accusations of anti-semitism and anti-arabism, but I have no time. I still have to work (I'm at work: read is no problem, write takes more time).
See you monday.

	14-02-2003 20:41									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In most people's book "moral values" includes keeping your word and not breaking treaties.

Anti-ballistic missiles treay ring a bell? NAFTA?

Save the lawyer snakeoil, if Turkey is a US ally in an
attack on Iraq, it not up to Belguim to pull it's nuts
out of the sauage grinder.

If Turkey is attacked by Iraq, it will be due to an attack
of The USA on Iraq. Therefore Belgium and Nato should
attack the USA. Using the same logic.

	14-02-2003 20:41									#207
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I've read somewhere (cannot find the source), that France, Belgium and Germany didn't disagree on defending Turkey should it be attacked.
These 3 countries refused to send their troops now, unlike NATO4s plan, simply because Turkey isn't at war.

I would harshly oppose a parjuration of our word, but this disagreement is perfectly understandable : we do not think there is any threat from Iraq towards Turkey (which is consistent to our view from the beginning, that Iraq isn't a threat)

	14-02-2003 20:45									#208
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , if you would care to read some of the other posts you would get some idea of who talked about teaching who , .... lets see , boutmans , we should place a frigate in front of the coast of Tel - Aviv and send some exocets if they dont listen , .... gallant , we should ban the Jews from living in belgium , ..... etc , .... etc , ...... bye

sharon :
1) i hate palestinians : lets send some tanks over there and shoot the place up
2) one of the previous israeli governements signed a treaty about palestian autonomy, but hey, it was not me ...

i have to admit, action speeks louder than words ...

	14-02-2003 20:47									#209
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once you guys were so close ... too bad Rabin didn't make it ...

	14-02-2003 20:47									#210
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis NATO is a defensive organisation... if one of its members declares war on another country without prior consulting well ... Besides, turkey has already a large part of its military present along its southern borders... you know, the kurds live there ... And for another thing, a large part of the american reinforcements are being shipped to the gulf via Antwerp. As it is stipulated by the NATO treaty the Belgian governement gives free passage to these troops. So we abide by nato's rules and we don't twist them into our advantage each time we have a political reason to do so.

hi ,

you talk like if turkey declared war first and then asked for help , .....

they have sincere concerns , ...

bye