16-02-2003 00:47									#241
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis Yes, the whole world should tremble when the almighty US labels somebody a terrorist, but a person who orders tanks to drive through homes of civilians but happens to be a supporter of your governements foreign policies is to be left alone ... "Land of the free" my #ss !

I see you are waving the German flag.

	16-02-2003 00:52									#242
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Oh, and now IIRC the decision, the WTO also found that the US case for the amount of subsidy provided was completely off-base wrt reality...

	16-02-2003 00:56									#243
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Yes, they took issue with the calculations the US used to justify the amount of the tarrif imposed on Canadian softwood lumber. How does that justify your stance that the Candian government has done nothing to precipitate this dispute?

	16-02-2003 01:05									#244
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Because if the stumpage fees are too low by the American estimation they should have said that and provided a reasonable estimate of what they should be raised to instead of demanding a switch to a free-market system and imposing a tariff which is completely out of tune with the realistic benefit of the current fees.

Keep it up, though. Even with the current duties we've increased the amount of lumber we're shipping south over the past year.

The US attempted to claim that an acre of wood in Washington State is the same as an acre of wood in the BC interior. Somebody should have told them that it costs a hell of a lot to build roads up in the mountains and ship the stuff a thousand kilometers south, lowering its value...

	16-02-2003 01:26									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Keep it up, though. Even with the current duties we've increased the amount of lumber we're shipping south over the past year.

This seems to argue against the need for the stumpage fees, does it not?

	16-02-2003 01:43									#246
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No, what it says is that the combination of more abundant forests, undervalued dollar and more efficient factories is what gives Canadian softwood the competitive edge, not an artificially low stumpage fee.

Why should we do business the way you want us to? We usually settle on trade disputes, but this one is starting to get on people's nerves.

Until you drop the requirement that we completely change the way the Crown sells lumber rights (which it's been doing for 200 years in Canada) or artificially inflate stumpage fees to the point where the US lumber industry can compete despite all its inefficiencies and natural disadvantages, I don't think we're going to settle this time.

	16-02-2003 02:41									#247
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And the reason for the Belgian policy...

The most popular names for newborn boys in Brussels in 2000&2001.

1) MOHAMED
3) AYOUB
5) BILAL
6) MEHDI
10) HAMZA

And girls :

3) IMANE
4) RANIA
5) YOUSRA
9) YASMINE

	16-02-2003 03:10									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Eli And the reason for the Belgian policy... The most popular names for newborn boys in Brussels in 2000&2001. 9) YASMINE

I named my youngest doughter Jasmine. And I am an extremely secular Christian, who doesen't care at all about any Christian or Muslim name lobbies.

	16-02-2003 03:18									#249
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Eli : Yes, in Belgium, France and Germany, there is a strong muslim minority, and they are much more numerous than Jews (but often less influent). The governments there do not want to alienate this big minoruty, which explains in part why they reject war.

	16-02-2003 03:20									#250
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Most of the people naming their children muslim names are muslim. Large numbers of muslim immigraints have moved to places like Belgium and they have brought their anti-semitism with them. Now, the politicians are pandering to their hatred in order to get votes.

	16-02-2003 03:48									#251
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Do we really have to bring up the large numbers of Jews living in the States? Or the fact that they're probably one of the groups most for a war?

Do you actually claim that most Muslims in Western countries are antisemitic? Or is it possible that they're just more sensitive to an attack against their coreligionists, as Jews are to attacks against Jews?

	16-02-2003 03:52									#252
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I do contend that Arab culture is deeply ingrained with anti-Semitism. Certainly as deeply ingrained as segregation was in the south. Sure, they are more sensitive to the plight of their coreligionists but their is also a very large dose of hate involved.

	16-02-2003 03:56									#253
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I have seen no antisemitism from politicians whatsoever in Europe in my entire lifespan, except from Le Pen (who attacks the Arabs much more than the Jews).
It is a complete misconception to think the Arabs are naturally antismeitic, and it is a complete misconception top think antisemitism is promoted by politicians in Europe.

	16-02-2003 03:58									#254
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It's often forgotten here also, that Arabs are targetted x 100 in racists attacks than Jews. Especially after 9/11.

	16-02-2003 03:59									#255
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I think there's a lot of antisemitism in the muslim world itself. But I've also noticed that the muslims who live here aren't as ignorant as those who live in countries like Syria or SA.

And it may be because I know some Jews but hardly any Muslims very well, but I've seen a lot more examples of hatred among the former.

I still try to think the best of the community as a whole, and from what I've seen I'm probably right: most in both communities are pretty decent.

And I also know something else: I think that in this case (it's sometimes different, especially when the issue is more Pal/Israel related) the positions of the 2 blocs (American hawks, Euro doves) are probably due more to actual differences in perception than they are to the presence of single-issue ethnic groups within their borders.

	16-02-2003 04:02									#256
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quote: Do we really have to bring up the large numbers of Jews living in the States? Or the fact that they're probably one of the groups most for a war?

This is clearly a case of people sticking for their own, Frogger, I know that.

I think that politicians in europe see that the cultural composition of their constituency is changing, and want to stay ahead of the game, sort to speak.

	16-02-2003 04:02									#257
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Frogger: I can't find detailed info on the break down of religion in Belgium but I did find that 90% were Christian (edit: It said 90% Roman Catholic)and 10% other. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of that is muslim. By contrast the Jewish population in the U.S. is only 1.9%. Now do you see why the politicians in Belgium need to pay so much closer attention to how the muslim population feels?

*Edit: That Roman Catholic 90%, as opposed to Christian, hurts my argument alittle but the basic trend is probably still the same.

Last edited by Oerdin on 16-02-2003 at 04:10

	16-02-2003 04:04									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I have seen no antisemitism from politicians whatsoever in Europe in my entire lifespan, except from Le Pen (who attacks the Arabs much more than the Jews). It is a complete misconception to think the Arabs are naturally antismeitic, and it is a complete misconception top think antisemitism is promoted by politicians in Europe.

There are whole threads on nothing but this topic. I'm sure several of our Israeli friends can show you all sorts in interesting satistics.

	16-02-2003 04:06									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It's often forgotten here also, that Arabs are targetted x 100 in racists attacks than Jews. Especially after 9/11.

It is true. There was a spike but I believe it has settled down. Does anyone know for sure?

	16-02-2003 04:08									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Frogger: I can't find detailed info on the break down of religion in Belgium but I did find that 90% were Christian and 10% other. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of that is muslim. By contrast the Jewish population in the U.S. is only 1.9%. Now do you see why the politicians in Belgium need to pay so much closer attention to how the muslim population feels?

I doubt there are 10% muslims in Belgium. There is a very important Jewish community there (you probably missed the discussion in another thread...but you know who's been the traditional diamond merchants that make Antwerp so important, right?)

And then there are the atheists, which probably take up at least 5% of the population.

Britain has 1-1.5 million muslims....or around the same percentage as the US has Jews. I would guess that the British are probably representative.

	16-02-2003 04:10									#261
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So what you're saying is that these complaintants cant take action in Israel? If they have a real case against Sharon (and I'm not saying they do or dont) thats the place to try it not in Belgium.

Are you serious? Obviously Sharon´s crimes have wide public support in Israel. He can´t be tried there, because, unfortunately, he personifies his country. But is that a great reason to support a criminal, just because he is chief of a rogue state?

What, again, was your case against Saddam?

	16-02-2003 04:10									#262
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Now, France on the other hand has a lot of Muslims (10%). And what's funny is that the French aren't pandering to them; apparently there's actually a huge amount of institutional racism against them. Worse than you'll find against Jews...

	16-02-2003 04:16									#263
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Frogger : I agree with you.
Here, Iraq isn't considered to be a threat to the west. Hence, the main point of Bush is completely ignored here (dangerous WMD). So the war is considered to be waged for the imperialistic interests of Yankland.

	16-02-2003 04:19									#264
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as opposed to your own.

	16-02-2003 04:19									#265
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Last tiime I was in Belgium I found some NIGGERS and they were very black. What would I do about it?






Ehhhhhh

	16-02-2003 04:20									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Last tiime I was in Belgium I found some NIGGERS and they were very black. What would I do about it? Ehhhhhh

Wrong forum....

	16-02-2003 04:25									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is true. There was a spike but I believe it has settled down. Does anyone know for sure?

In France, the Arabs are taken as priviledged tagets from the police, have dire hardships to find a job when there is competition with typical white French, they are deemed as lazy and using shamlessly the welfare system.
Both far right parties attack the Arabs much more than any other minority (including the Blacks), and the conservative party subtly profits from the rampant racism sometimes. OTOH, it has massive support among the Jews I know of.

In France, antisemitism has known a renewal with the 2nd intifada, which has led to demonstrations and destructions in several synagogues. The police took action very quickly to protect these holy places, and antisemitism remains rampant in a part of the muslim minority.
Except for some rare occurences with Le Pen, no party has shown any antisemitism. Le Pen's antisemitic provocations have both resulted in trials, and he lost his diplomatic immunity twice.
Left-wing parties are vocal against Israel's policies, but they are not antisemitic by any standard (if you acknowledge there is a difference between Sharon's administration and the Jewish people ). Antisemitism is not in the political values of any party except some of the far right, and it's considered a serious offence which can have dire political consequences.

	16-02-2003 04:27									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel as opposed to your own.

Azazel : I think you were replying to me. In France, the support to Chirac in this matter comes from the fact most French are against the incoming slaughter. Our imperialistic interests have probably a big place in Chirac's opposition, but definitely not in the French's opposition to war.

	16-02-2003 04:32									#269
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My thoughts exactly, Spiffor.

You have a very nice country, btw. I have to say it after all the france-bashing going around. ( You know how does it feel to be an Israeli in the UN, now. )

Olaf

	16-02-2003 04:36									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You know how does it feel to be an Israeli in the UN, now.

Yes, I begin to understand. However, I realize France has got many less insults and smut than Israel, but I'm not eager to get as many insults as you