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Ironikinit
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... is to do nothing. Forget about them. Frankly I believe the common form of the rabid anti-American to be a sign of mental deficiency or inbalance. No matter what the US does, this type will cry foul. In fact, IMO trying to work with the UN has been a fiasco for the US on the Iraq issue. The USA needs to get bearings from its own moral compass, not listen to the mouthings of insignificant crackpots.
Reasoned criticism is always more than welcome, it is absolutely necessary and sometimes it's possible to see more clearly from a distance. However, those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster can safely be ignored. Those who show an intelligence that goes beyond the superficial posturings of intellectualism cannot.
Americans, remember that others do not all share a love for a winner. Their inadequecies lead them to the failure's love for their fellow losers. Through luck and hard work America has become the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate.
In short, the ignore feature works, use it.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:25
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USA! USA! USA!
*ahem*
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Kropotkin
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of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ironikinit
... is to do nothing. Forget about them. Frankly I believe the common form of the rabid anti-American to be a sign of mental deficiency or inbalance. No matter what the US does, this type will cry foul. In fact, IMO trying to work with the UN has been a fiasco for the US on the Iraq issue. The USA needs to get bearings from its own moral compass, not listen to the mouthings of insignificant crackpots. |
Frankly, the same could be said about views from the US on a number of occations. The level of the cross atlantic debate nowadays futher neither.
quote:
However, those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster can safely be ignored. |
While I don't know what theories you're thinking about I can't really understand how such a theory can be both untested and proven to be a disaster at the same time.
quote:
...America has become the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate. |
That many americans look at themselves as a nation chosen by God witch in turn after a while makes it hard to tell them apart form the talibans will as usal not help the cross atlantic connections. It's hard to conduct a reasonable debate if either of the sides refuse alternatives a priori.
quote:
In short, the ignore feature works, use it. |
So why are you starting a thread about something you're ignoring?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:25
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In your post, you make a point. And many mistakes.
You are absolutely right when you say you should ignore rabid anti-americanism, as an individual. If rabid anti-americanism becomes too much spread, your government should do something about it (because it's dangerous for US citizens), but you shouldn't worry too much about extremist loonies.
However, I think you're just about wrong in everthing else you say :
"No matter what the US does, this type will cry foul".
Wrong. Many people, including in Europe, supported the war in Afghanistan or in Kosovo. There has been a huge solidarity after Sept. 11 in all the western world. The recent surge of antiamericanism is due to the sheer arrogance your foreign policy shows under Bush :
- refusal of Kyoto protocol (which raised huge hopes in Europe),
- warmongering militantism against Iraq (here, we feel that Americans don't even try to think of a peaceful solution, and consider their guns to be the only answer)
- Significant lowering of human rights, especially regarding prisoners made during the war on terror.
- I also think the hate for the US in the Arabic world comes from the permanent backing of Israel. Also, the US tries to deprive the Arabic world of a leading power, and thus to attack/kill each time a country threatens to become one (like Iraq).
"those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster can safely be ignored"
I wonder what you mean with "outlandish, untested theories of government", could you be more explicit please ?
Also, I assume you're referring to appeasement when you speak about "theories proven by history to lead to disaster". And I asume you're referring to the arguments of France, Germany, Russia and China. (My assumptions may be completely wrong, in this case, please specify what you meant if you reply, please)
What is appeasement ? It is the French / British diplomatic strategy used before WW2, which aimed to avoid war by giving hitler what he wanted. This was motivated by fear, and by the assumption hitler had a finite apetite, and would stop demanding at some point.
Today, if a country is appeasing, it is Iraq itself. It has officially agreed to every demand made by the UN from the beginning of the crisis, by allowing inspectors back, by giving a huge report within the tiny period of one month, etc. Saddam knows very well his regime will fall if there is war, so he tries to appease the West.
France, Russia, germany and China aren't models of goodwill and humanity, as they try to prevent a war for very rational reasons (domestic / European politics, deals with Saddam's regime, showing the US it's not the only bully anymore, etc. etc.) Their strategy is not appeasement, for they are not motivated by fear of the rampaging Iraqi army.
These countries try to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis, and want to avoid the bloodbath, for it would go against their insterests (only Germany is somehow sincere by wanting to avoid a bloodbath out of moral reasons). A diplomatic solution would be successful, for example, if all Iraqi WMD and research programs have been destroyed by UN experts ; Saddam's regime would probably be unscathed, even if these countries might demand (once again) to Saddam to put mock democratic institutions in place.
In short, i just wanted to say there is no reason to speak about appeasement in this whole affair ( a word I've read way too much here)
"Americans, remember that others do not all share a love for a winner. Their inadequecies lead them to the failure's love for their fellow losers. Through luck and hard work America has become the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate."
I hope you do not believe one word of the above quote. If the hate for America only had envy as its cause, how do you explain the surge of antiamericanism is so recent ? It's not like US dominance is 2 years old... How do you explain anti-americanism is stronger in Europe now than ever, while Europe is now on par economically with the US (one less reason to be envious) ?
Antiamericaism has many, many roots, and envy can be one of them for former empires disgruntled by their lost grandeur (France mostly). Envy is a pretty unsignificant root of antiamericanism worldwide, but to some arrogant Americans, it is impossible to hate America for any other reason than envy, since the country is soooo perfect.
I think the generally percieved American arrogance helps people to hate your country more deeply once they start hating it deepens the hate, even if doesn't start it (edit). If America lost this "we are the best and you are crap compared to us" attitude, the US would have much less hate to suffer from.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Spiffor on 13-02-2003 at 21:37
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Ironikinit
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11 replies, one worth responding to.
Kropotkin, you're it.
I never claimed that Americans were smarter than anybody else, merely that it's a waste of time responding to rabid anti-Americans.
Sorry if I was unclear with this bit: "those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster". I meant two different types of theories in an effort to cover more ground: Those that are untested and those that have been tried and failed.
You can tell Americans apart from the Taliban in a lot of ways. Do I need to go into this? I'm afraid if I do I'll just sound like a smartass.
quote:
So why are you starting a thread about something you're ignoring? |
Again, the answer to this should be obvious. Have a look at the spam fest between DinoDoc and paiktis for a hint.
Eh, maybe not so reply worthy after all.
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Alex
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Brasil
Mar 1999
time: 02:25
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Is this a Iraq thread?
hm, anyway, the answer is: nuke them all. Then you won't have trouble with people being anti-American. And this is serious. I'm tired of all this bullsh!t.
Last edited by Alex on 13-02-2003 at 22:04
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Ironikinit
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Spiffor up to bat.
"this type will cry foul" means rabid anti-Americans. I thought that was clear from the get, but now you know.
The US had good reason not to ratify the Kyoto protocol, mainly that developing countries could pollute all they wish while developed countries could not. If other countries wish to handicap themselves thus and lose jobs, that's their perogative. If other countries wish to pressure the US into reducing emissions, there are ways to do so.
Yes, yes, warmongering militarism. Clinton bombed countries without UN approval, but Bush goes through the UN and he's a warmonger. If Iraq proves it has no WMD, there will be no war.
I have nothing to say about the human rights issue at this time other than I believe the issue to be trumped up given the crisis situation.
Iraq is pretty far from a leading power in the Middle East. It's under UN sanction. You forget the huge amount of US aid to countries like Egypt. The majority of Arabic nations have gone unmolested by the US.
This stuff's all so basic I can't believe it passes for an argument around here.
Actually, I meant anarchists, fascists, and communists when I referred to theories of government. I disagree that only Germany objects to war for moral reasons. Every country has pacifists and IMO part of France's objections are on moral grounds.
I've seen anti-Americanism around for much longer than two years. I grew up with it.
Anyway, the pattern is clear to anyone who has read history. Even the relatively enlightened British Empire had many critics. To this day the British are widely hated in the Arab world.
It is a simple fact that the US is exactly what I said it is, the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. You react as if I can't possibly believe that. My response: to think otherwise is to be delusional. I don't think that Americans are anything special, they simply are the most powerful and richest. Some of that is due to luck, but a lot of it is due to hard work. If it's arrogant to say so, sorry but I'm arrogant. I'm also speaking the plain truth.
Kropotkin:
That you had to ignore Dinodocs and Paitikis underlines the obviousness of the situation and your acceptance of my basic conclusion.
Most of the other stuff you had to say in your recent post I'll leave as is.
I hope this doesn't turn into an Iraq thread. This board doesn't need another. The basic conclusion is simply that most anti-Americans should be ignored because they do not represent the views of very many people. I live abroad, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
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Ironikinit
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OK, I'll knock it off.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ironikinit
"this type will cry foul" means rabid anti-Americans. I thought that was clear from the get, but now you know. |
OK. You're right to ignore this kind of Anti-Americans.
quote:
The US had good reason not to ratify the Kyoto protocol, mainly that developing countries could pollute all they wish while developed countries could not. If other countries wish to handicap themselves thus and lose jobs, that's their perogative. If other countries wish to pressure the US into reducing emissions, there are ways to do so.
Yes, yes, warmongering militarism. Clinton bombed countries without UN approval, but Bush goes through the UN and he's a warmonger. If Iraq proves it has no WMD, there will be no war.
I have nothing to say about the human rights issue at this time other than I believe the issue to be trumped up given the crisis situation.
Iraq is pretty far from a leading power in the Middle East. It's under UN sanction. You forget the huge amount of US aid to countries like Egypt. The majority of Arabic nations have gone unmolested by the US.
This stuff's all so basic I can't believe it passes for an argument around here. |
You are right on most things. My arguments intended to show the perceptions of what's happening in the mind of Anti-Americans or potential anti-Americans. Unlike Clinton, Bush has a crappy image, and gives the image of being worse a warmonger.
Like anything any country has done, there are tons of reasons why the US didn't ratify Kyoto (granted, I disagree with all of them), but it was percieved here as a US willingness to pollute us all, and was associaited with the image of a redneck saying "I don't care of the world, ah just love my big SUV" (or something like that). The typical American arrogance was clearly associated to US behavior re Kyoto.
quote:
Actually, I meant anarchists, fascists, and communists when I referred to theories of government. I disagree that only Germany objects to war for moral reasons. Every country has pacifists and IMO part of France's objections are on moral grounds.
I've seen anti-Americanism around for much longer than two years. I grew up with it.
Anyway, the pattern is clear to anyone who has read history. Even the relatively enlightened British Empire had many critics. To this day the British are widely hated in the Arab world. |
I wonder where you live. In my home France, there has always been a latent antiamericanism, but it has grown much, much stronger in a short while. In Germany, people were appeled a few years ago if you said you disliked the US. I guess most European countries were moslty like Germany, thankful for the help during WW2.
quote:
It is a simple fact that the US is exactly what I said it is, the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. You react as if I can't possibly believe that. My response: to think otherwise is to be delusional. I don't think that Americans are anything special, they simply are the most powerful and richest. |
Absolutely true, except for economy, where the EU is now on par, and has as much bargaining power in international negociations. It is not arrogant to say your country is the most powerful right now. But things like :
"Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate." (your first post) is arrogant. It is also arrogant to think envy is the only / the most important factor of anti-americanism. At least in my understanding, envy means not only that others want your power (which is sometimes true), but also that they're jealous of your way of life. To loosely quote the American propaganda after Sept. 11 : "they hate us because they're envious of our liberty, advanced society, capitalism, and everything we represent".
The USA is the most powerful country in today's world, without a doubt, but its society isn't the most enlightened (if there is such a thing). Many Americans seem to think so, which is unbearable wen you live in a different society that you love, for example a society with welfare.
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Bereta_Eder
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The difference is I'm Greek and he's a geek.
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13-02-2003 20:40
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