15-02-2003 16:50									#61
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There is a big problem with european countries, generally.

Your birthrates, people. Your natural population is plummeting, and I am not sure that many of the people migrating to replace you will hold the same attitudes due to the difference in culture. So you'll have either boost growth, or loose the 'cultural diverisity', and start educating all people to behave like europeans.

	15-02-2003 16:55									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

But it's much easier to let them chant "Allah Ackbar" and death to the Great Satan. It is far more difficult to educate people about western values.

	15-02-2003 17:37									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Japan. Very hi-tech. Not too poor either, I think.

	15-02-2003 17:45									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: But it's much easier to let them chant "Allah Ackbar" and death to the Great Satan. It is far more difficult to educate people about western values.

wouldn't be so damn blatant about it, but there is such an option, esp. since it seems that the demographic and the sociological structure of the new immigrant population doesn't change, despite the improved economic situation in relation to the countries they come from, and the exposure to western values.
And the most weird think is that people are not willing to pursue this, not willing to say: "Our way is the correct way".

	15-02-2003 18:00									#65
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: And the most weird think is that people are not willing to pursue this, not willing to say: "Our way is the correct way".

It's (unfortunately) not very PC to say that you know

	15-02-2003 18:03									#66
	Put an end to popups!

quote: It's (unfortunately) not very PC to say that you know

yes, well, they will have no such problems, I am certain.

	15-02-2003 18:10									#67
	Get a bigger avatar today!

what do you mean

	15-02-2003 18:14									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I am certain that if the cultural balance is shifted, their community leaders will have little problems to enfoce their morality.

I see it in my country with the religious population.

Why do you think that muslim clerics are better in their perception of the world than christian? They're always about forcing their view. No matter who do they represent.

	15-02-2003 19:07									#69
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd bet the U.S. is very near the top once you look at things in that light.

What kind of light? GDP per capita is not an indication of how socially progressed a nation is. It tells a person nothing of how the society is treating the minorities, the disabled, the most disadvantaged, and those on the fringes. Education, crime rate, public transport are not touched. That is one of the worst possible indicators, if not the worst.

	15-02-2003 19:21									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh if you look at it that way, then I guess we are very progressive. Everyone is taken care of, disabled, drunk, old people, no one is left behind. At least this is what we try to do, and succeed in .. pretty good taking reality into consideration. We have no crime, education is free and pretty good too, and you get actually paid and supported by the gov, and not pay for it. Public transport is excellent in cities etc, in other areas I don't know.

Of course we pay for this dearly, like everyone does free military service/civil service, everyone soon pays $8 for gallon of gas etc etc etc.. No one really makes good money, and so on. Choice we have made.. and that's why I feel pretty alienated from my country
So if you like super socialist thing, come here. If you're not a commie, don't come... wait.. if you're commie, stay away too. Just don't come ok?

	15-02-2003 19:23									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Pekka,

What's the difference if you pay for it or not? Anyone would pay for that.

	15-02-2003 19:41									#72
	Put an end to popups!

I don't understand how anyone can say the US. You could populate a lot of those smaller European countries with the number of poor just in the US.

That's not even counting the amount of people that are killed by firearms in a year. About 11-12k are murdered... but counting suicides and accidents, the number is about 30-35k.

And in all areas, things are getting worse.


On a side note.
Floyd, your selfish attitude sickens me. You're making a mistake by thinking all poor people are simply lazy. Also... welfare programs work, BTW. Only about 10% of people that receive welfare are chronically poor. It's easy to stereotype people in the ghetto having children to make money on welfare, but that simply isn't what the vast majority of welfare collectors are. And I think that the amount of taxes taken out of my paycheck is certainly worth the money considering the children that will be able to eat and go to school because of my sacrifice. Although you may go to church more, I'm certainly more "Christian".

	15-02-2003 22:07									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

DuncanK, it also means taxing is so hard in everything, that you can't afford .. anything.

	15-02-2003 22:39									#74
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh, it just has to be Cuba.

	15-02-2003 22:42									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Cuba has some programs that would be beneficial in the US. But I'd rank it below the US in a poll like this.

	16-02-2003 00:14									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Odin, it's not because you're Swedish is it?

No, I'm 3/4 Norwegian and 1/4 German

	16-02-2003 00:28									#77
	Remove this text

I thought you were american.

	16-02-2003 00:32									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Holland has a loooong history of respect for indivindual rights. Didn't come overnight... Still I don't like the end result. Went to Amsterdam, was hussled by drug pushers in mid day on central streets and saw the most brutal bar brawl. All that in one day. And the streets of Amsterdam didn't seem too safe to me. If that's the result I want none of it But if that's what Hollanders want, fine

Must have been "A Bad Day In Amsterdam" Drug pushers are merely an annoyance and bar brawls happen all over the world. Compared to other big cities Amsterdam has the feel of a small town. If it weren't for Amsterdammers (that a word?) and Ajax it would be a great town

	16-02-2003 00:34									#79
	Support Apolyton

You know, I am warming more and more towards Canada.

If Canada really is the more socially progressive nation, and if someday I would decide to live in Canada, I would suffer the least amount of culture shock and lingual difficulties -- as long as I steer clear of Quebec.

At least in Canada, the society is more willing to acknowledge the human dignity of homosexuals. Or am I mistaken to presume that?

	16-02-2003 00:42									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

British Columbia sounds nice... I'll become a marijuana farmer

But alas, I'm an American. I don't like mayonaise, I won't say, "aboot", and I can't stand Canadian football. I'd rather try and make the US a better place than to give up and head north.

	16-02-2003 00:47									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was thinking maybe I should elaborate or clarify more on what I meant in my initial post.

societal problems: ghettos/slums, poverty, widespread discrimination, corporate corruption/exploitation, government corruption, quality of education system

ensuring justice: abolishment of death penalty, abolishment of racial profiling, equal sentences for criminals regardless of minority or majority group status

distribution of wealth kinda overlaps with societal problems: again, poverty; fair taxation system between all classes, abolishment of corporate welfare

equal rights: again, overlapping with societal problems; making discrimination illegal based on sexual orientation, effective enforcement of pre-existing equal rights/opportunity laws

	16-02-2003 02:24									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Speaking as someone who has actually been to almost all the countries on this list (excluding Norway and Finland), I would have to say without doubt that the Netherlands is the most progressive country...

I would follow that with the Scandinavian countries, although a big minus in their book are the astronomical prices for alcohol in those countries - you also have to wonder why so many people commit suicide in Sweden as well...

As for the US...

quote: Originally posted by MrFun societal problems: ghettos/slums, poverty, widespread discrimination, corporate corruption/exploitation, government corruption, quality of education system

Netherlands: Poverty although obviously existing in some parts, doesn't seem to be an issue here. There is limited discrimination, but then Pim Fortuyn did get elected posthumously last year. Not sure about corruption, but then don't hear about it. Education seems very good indeed - the Dutch all seem to know at least three languages fluently. Embarrassingly, many young Dutch can speak English better than many English - that is a fact!

US: Abject, crushing, poverty is so widespread it is sickening! Admittedly a lot of it is nicely hidden away in Black ghettoes and Indian Reservations - but it's there big time! Corruption: Big Time - Enron, and those other companies, the Bush election etc. Education, I'll just say it's not as good as the Dutch and leave it at that...

quote: ensuring justice: abolishment of death penalty, abolishment of racial profiling, equal sentences for criminals regardless of minority or majority group status

Let's see, the US seems to be against most of that and the Dutch seems to be for it - advantage Dutch!

quote: distribution of wealth kinda overlaps with societal problems: again, poverty; fair taxation system between all classes, abolishment of corporate welfare

Same as above

quote: equal rights: again, overlapping with societal problems; making discrimination illegal based on sexual orientation, effective enforcement of pre-existing equal rights/opportunity laws

Same as above. Dutch allow gay marriages, drugs, regulated prostitution, less in your face racism, less death on the streets etc.

I thought Amsterdam was a cool place to hang out and after a couple of days people stop asking you if you want drugs as you somehow blend in with the locals by the 3rd day or so...

	16-02-2003 02:56									#83
	Got spare money?

Hehehe, sorry Mobius but all is not well in Paradise

We have our share of poverty and ghettos, our corruption, our xenophobia...

About us speaking at least three languages? Most of us speak only Dutch, a few of us speak heavily accented basic English and that's about it...

But all in all I think we are doing alright, though it always could be better...

	16-02-2003 03:49									#84
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Hueij Hehehe, sorry Mobius but all is not well in Paradise We have our share of poverty and ghettos, our corruption, our xenophobia... About us speaking at least three languages? Most of us speak only Dutch, a few of us speak heavily accented basic English and that's about it... But all in all I think we are doing alright, though it always could be better...

Yeah well you guys hide it well, cos in the US it is often in your face.

As for languages, you're right about the older generation but my experience is that pretty much anyone my age or younger seems to also know English and German. Some sound so 'english' that I have trouble actually believing they're Dutch.

It might also help that I worked for Shell for 4 years and was surrounded by a lot of Dutch, maybe that skewed my opinions slightly...

	16-02-2003 03:55									#85
	Put an end to popups!

Dunno your age, but people under 30 don't speak German anymore. Since we got cable tv we don't watch German tv anymore so we lost our ability to speak German

And it's the older generations that speak more than just Dutch and English

	16-02-2003 04:54									#86
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel I thought you were american.

I wish I wasn't..............

(gets dragged off by Ashcroft's SS officers.)

	16-02-2003 05:27									#87
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Where is Switzerland?

	16-02-2003 05:28									#88
	Got spare money?

Just to point out - multicultural/ neutral/ no wars for centuries/ rich / educated etc... surely a good example where the world should be going.

	16-02-2003 05:32									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

PPP is good. It shows actually how much people have to spend as opposed to what a mythical average person might have.

	16-02-2003 05:47									#90
	Sweden Suffering from ads?

I've hesitated between Sweden and Netherlands, but I have picked Sweden eventually.
The Netherlands have shown their ugly face during 2002's elections, when a racist list in favor of killing junkees became second. It was typically dutch, because you'd see nowhere else in the world a gay far-right charismatic leader (Pim Fortuyn).
The Dutch have great achievements, but I get the impression they are closing to other peoples because they are soo proud of them.

Sweden has an extremely good record re wealth distribution, while keeping a performant economy. There is a nearly complete gender equality there (it is somtimes excessive, I've heard they want to forbid urinals as a symbol of male dominance), and the society is less closed on itself, even if far right parties are now stronger than before.