21-03-2003 13:38									#31
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Not for me either. It can be a nice bonus, but usually I tend to just stick to one angle anyhow.

	30-03-2003 02:31									#32
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Some thoughts for Enriquillo on why I love playing with auto-transport--

* You still have to decide when to build your dock and get transporting technology (you can't auto-transport until you have a Dock and enough Science). Also you need additional technology to be able to -build- anything on another continent. So transporting across water still requires additional planning. The research and expenditures required to get an early Dock up are often pretty different from a straight "land map" starting build, so deciding to get going early on sea exploration is a significant decision point in your game early game.

* Transporting across water still involves significant risk-- in the "waters crawling with enemy ships" example, the enemy ships would pick off your transports faster than you can say "trireme". Most naval ships have a 1-shot-1-kill rate on enemy transports, and light ships (the best transport hunters) can even fire while moving.

* Since most of your Wealth comes from trade routes between your cities, on water maps your (auto-transporting) caravans will be vulnerable to sea interception--a whole new dimension. Also, since units don't take attrition at sea, a sea-based ground raiding force can be quite effective. For these reasons, control of the sea is very important on water maps.

An abstraction, to be sure, but strategy games are rife with abstraction. Personally I feel like we kept all the fun parts about water maps while getting rid of the bad forms of micromanagement. You're entitled, of course, to disagree.

Brian

	30-03-2003 02:56									#33
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Ack! Brian, how come you got into a thread title of which has both "RoN" and "sucks" ?

IMHO, auto-transport off still gives more of an "involvement" feeling. I'm sure this will fade away as I develop an experience of many dozen hours behind RoN, but for now it seems that controlling things manually is better, sort of .

Although, yes, I am overwhelmed by amount of possibilities as it is.

	30-03-2003 06:46									#34
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Brian:

I see you've copied a lot of the Civ gameplay features, even though Civ has transports

I might even get used to this autotransport someday, but for now I'm gonna say it stinks, since you told me I could

PS: My major in college was logistics, so you can see where I'm coming from, I want transports!

	30-03-2003 12:44									#35
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Yeah, i just don't understand the logic of wanting transports. They've been nothing but trouble for me. Not sure which game it was (think AoK?) but the transports stored 6 units. Where the hell did they pick that number? I like to build a nice formula of units. Say 15 infantry, 20 cav, and 5 seige, now how am i supposed to fit this efficiently into ships which hold 6 units? And on top of that i need to remember which transport has what so i don't wind up with my seige jumping off the boats and getting slaughterd while my regular troops sit in the ships. And did i mention how ANOYING it is to select all the transports and tell them to disembark at a spot, only to find 2 of them drop troops and the others kind of go "oops, too many troops on shore, i'll just sit here and do nothing."

And don't forget that you need to ctrl-group all your units BEFORE you put them on the transports or your screwed when it comes to micro-ing the battle on the other island.


In case you havn't guessed, i'm in support of the auto-transport idea Though i would have liked a system where you can only auto-transport instantly from a dock, so waypoint units to a dock then to sea and they auto-transport. But, if you don't have a dock (or choose not to use one) you can simply click right on the sea and they will still auto-transport, it will simply take a bit of time (not instant, say 15-25 seconds) and cost a few resourses per unit (some wood and maybe a little wealth). This would encourage people to use docks, but would still allow them to get away without them everywhere (or if they landed on the wrong island etc.). I feel this wouldn't be much of a hassle (how hard is it to waypoint?) but would still add a bit of strategy to the game and punish people for not scouting properly ("alright men! lets hit the beaches......oh SH!T, there's 3x as many as i thought! lets just sail away....").

I just thought the idea of D-day invasion forces suddenly turning around and getting right back on boats to be a little to far fetched ya know?

	30-03-2003 15:13									#36
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well the idea of a sea transport with a fixed number of units per carriage is for upgrade possibilties and how that effect game play.


one thing i hope is a way to speed up sea transports/travel in RoN.
Is there such a thing in RoN?

	30-03-2003 23:04									#37
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Question #1: If I have units selected and I click on the ground, do I automatically lose control of them like in EE or do I still keep control of them, like in Starcraft

Question #2: If I have units selected and I right click in the water, do they automatically build transports and got to that place? Or do I have to click on a landmass seperated by water for them to turn into transports?

	31-03-2003 07:20									#38
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If you give a unit a movement order, the unit remains selected.

If you select a unit and click in the water, assuming you have a dock, that unit will move to the shore, become a transport, then move to the spot you indicated. If you don't have a dock then you'll get an invalid move sound and the unit will do nothing (just as if you had clicked on any other invalid move location such as a mountain or off the side of the map).

	31-03-2003 21:13									#39
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quote: Yeah, i just don't understand the logic of wanting transports.

So the idea of just being able to sail anywhere from anywhere without thought seems logical or reasonable?
You just need one dock and suddenly your infantry can walk on water

How are you going to contain someone with this auto transport, you can't just keep an eye on his docks and patrol his coast since he can just sail away whenever he likes from a place of his choosing.

But the best reason is that autotransporting doesn't work too well, it's more frustrating then putting your units into transports in my experience with the Beta so far.

autotransports in a jam

	31-03-2003 21:18									#40
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I can't posibly see auto-transport being in the least bit more frustrating than regular transports. What's so hard about "click here" and they move?

And even with normal transports i could sail anywhere i wanted from any place of my choosing, it's no different. You'd have to patrol the entire coast (or the straights) or else i could build transports and leave another way. How is this different from auto-transport?

What's happening in that picure that's wrong? Looks right to me, units reach the shore and turn into transports?

	02-04-2003 01:30									#41
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quote: And even with normal transports i could sail anywhere i wanted from any place of my choosing

Wrong, normal transports would have to be protected by a regular navy or sneaked across early on.

With auto-transports and your shores being bombarded, you can still wait for the right moment and sneak your forces across without the need to build a dock and transports.

Also, you couldn't sail from a far away island to another far away island simply because you have no docks or transports there. It makes such a big difference on watermaps as I'm sure most you who have played RTS before will realize. No need to think about logistics, which is part of the fun on watermaps.

quote: or else i could build transports and leave another way

Unfortunately you won't have the time to build transports with enemy ships patroling your shores. With autotransports you can just sneak across in between patrolling ships.

quote: What's happening in that picure that's wrong?

Other than my troops being jammed together and taking ages to turn into transports, nothing wrong really

	02-04-2003 03:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Enriquillo Wrong, normal transports would have to be protected by a regular navy or sneaked across early on.

And with auto-transport you don't have to protect the transports? The things go quite slow and are killed in 1 shot by many ships, i think they might just require protection.

quote: With auto-transports and your shores being bombarded, you can still wait for the right moment and sneak your forces across without the need to build a dock and transports.

Well you do need a dock, if they whipe out all your docks you can't auto-transport. And in AoK if they whiped out all your docks you could STILL transport because maybe you had some hidden in the corner of the map? So auto-transport actually limits you more when they whipe out your docks.

quote: Also, you couldn't sail from a far away island to another far away island simply because you have no docks or transports there. It makes such a big difference on watermaps as I'm sure most you who have played RTS before will realize. No need to think about logistics, which is part of the fun on watermaps.

Not sure i understand, with regular transports you couldn't sail between far islands?? In terms of logistics of course you need them! You need ships patroling your shores to defend against an attack (if you spot one comming and send over ships you can probably cut their (undefended) invasion fleet in half before it hits the shores). You still need to protect your caravans (which auto-transport across the water to diff cities including allies) and you still need to protect your reinforcements. Just cause you land forces on and island doesn't mean they will win the day on their own, they will probably need a 2nd wave to secure the assimilated city until proper buildings can be built. In order for this second wave to get across you need to defend that supply line, else the enemy will be bombarding your invasion fleet from the shore at the same time as he whipes out the incomming 2nd wave.

quote: Bridger: And even with normal transports i could sail anywhere i wanted from any place of my choosing, it's no different. You'd have to patrol the entire coast (or the straights) or else i could build transports and leave another way. How is this different from auto-transport?

quote: Enriquillo Unfortunately you won't have the time to build transports with enemy ships patroling your shores. With autotransports you can just sneak across in between patrolling ships.

If enemy ships are patroling my shores enough to stop me from building transports, i'd assume they could also catch and cut down any auto-transports (being as weak as they are) in RoN, else your not doing a very good job of patroling. Also, you said so yourself (below) that auto-transporting takes "forever" so shouldn't that be enough time to find them?

quote: Other than my troops being jammed together and taking ages to turn into transports, nothing wrong really

Well i guess you could just send them into the ocean in peices, that's still less micromanagement than transports were.

	02-04-2003 05:53									#43
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quote: If you select a unit and click in the water, assuming you have a dock, that unit will move to the shore, become a transport, then move to the spot you indicated. If you don't have a dock then you'll get an invalid move sound and the unit will do nothing (just as if you had clicked on any other invalid move location such as a mountain or off the side of the map).

Not right click. I meant left click.

	02-04-2003 06:17									#44
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By default, left-clicking selects things and right-clicking does things. If you left-click on the ground after selecting a unit, you'll just deselect the unit. For folks who prefer the opposite, you can turn on an optional left-click mode.

	03-04-2003 05:01									#45
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Good. That's a very good thing. Because for all of you who played Starcraft, when you select something, you can't unselect it. The only way to unselect it was to click on another unit or building or click on a unit that is about to die. That was very annoying.

	03-04-2003 20:28									#46
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Salutations Bridger, me from RTS, what planet are you from?

Instead of repeating myself over and over, I'll just say that both myself and most of my RTS buddies agree that this autotransport has to go, for reasons I've stated on this and other forums over and over and over

I've actually started out a TBS player and slowly evolved to an RTS player, hehe
Both gametypes have brought me to believe transports are an integral part of any strategy game that involves water. I don't buy the part about it getting rid of tedious micro, that just doesn't hold true from my perspective. I feel people who like autotransporting (including Brian Reynolds) have too little experience with RTS to realise the difference it makes.

PS: Have you ever played Axis and Allies the boardgame?
I've played it a lot during my college years, and If you've played it as well , you'll know why I want transports.

	04-04-2003 01:11									#47
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I am firmilier with it, though not completely so.

I still belive that the old transports system was such a hassle. A modified version of the auto-transport system that added more strategy would suit me better. Have the unit's automatically build their own transports but have it cost resourses and time, and other variables just like regular transports, but without the micro.

	04-04-2003 17:19									#48
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Again, I still like the system as it is. And I'm an RTS vet as well as an A&A vet. The auto-transport feature fits well into the scheme of RoN.

	09-04-2003 02:04									#49
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Enriquillo,

Your friends will be fine, they said it is one rule that can be turned off.

In an actual game I think it will be fine depending on how it plays. I am looking forward to it in all honesty. Water levels are usually avoided with who I play with simply do to the transport issue. We like sea battles and like destroying buildings from sea but do not how stupid transports work. Even if I could send units to be collected by a transport that would be a start but I think this system should be given a start. And if you don't like it, turn it off.

	09-04-2003 02:29									#50
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Actually auto-transport can't be turned off in beta 3 (or 2).

	10-04-2003 19:59									#51
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I'll just play landmaps and go back to AoK or EE for my island games.

	16-04-2003 09:32									#52
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Sigh...the more I read about Rise of Nations the more disappointed I get. I'm still learning more but so far I've learned that there will be no real world maps . I had the same thing happen with Empire Earth which I had built up so much I just about passed out when I finally bought it and realized how much it sucked. I just have a bad bad feeling that this is going to happen again. I'll post later as I get more disappointed.

	16-04-2003 20:59									#53
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Where did you hear that? There are real world maps in CTW mode. I just invaded west africa from brizil (risk anyone?) and i was on a continent on the west side of the map that resembled brizil, while my enemy was on a continent on the east that resembled west africa, it's really cool.

	17-04-2003 02:02									#54
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It's in the Frequently Asked questions of RON...

http://apolyton.net/forums/misc.php?action=faq&page=11

quote: Will the game include real world maps? Due to the sheer scale, a map of the world isn't really feasible in the game, as a single city would place your borders over entire continents. However, the individual maps in the Conquer The World campaign, which does take place on a huge world map broken down into territories, are seeded based on the actual location that you are fighting in. For example, if you are battling in a territory in North Africa, the terrain of the individual maps will resemble that part of the world. The same goes for any other region.

I took this to mean that the maps you played on would have terrain similiar to different parts of the world but you didn't actually play a world map.

	17-04-2003 02:52									#55
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Yes that's true, you can play maps that resemble certain parts of the world. A map of the entire world would be far far too large to try to reproduce in ANY RTS game.

	17-04-2003 04:06									#56
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That is why I was hoping for a more hybrid between 2-D Turn based and 3-D RTS. What I mean is the game would be played primarily on a 2-D map ala CivIII to give it a larger feel and the cities and units as icons just as they are in CivIII. The 3-D Real time comes in if you click on a city, unit icon, or a battle takes place.

	17-04-2003 05:35									#57
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Ya I posted on another thread about this...the world map TBS side have a lot more room to be developed. So far its more like Total War series in this area, then civ. and stuff you build in one province doesnt really carry over to the next turn or have a feel of permanance, and you cant really control it in any detail in the world map. Only a general upgrade pointage system. I think there is a lot more potential in the CTW and room for it to expand. Ive read they will revisit this for an expack.
But I rather have more civs, if there has to be a choice between the two since I am a RTS player more then civ player.

	17-04-2003 06:08									#58
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Have no delusions, this is an RTS game, that's where the focus is. However, insted of a "campaign" single player like other RTS's, this gakes on a Total War type single player.

Total War is very close to this game. Total war has a slightly more complicated turn based system (no bases in the combat) but RoN has a slightly more complex RTS system (could stand alone and still sell).

	26-04-2003 19:29									#59
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My main concerns with RON is that it may be like a lot of other RTS out there. I havent read anything to make me think it will, but until I play it...well.

My concerns are AI mainly. Im primarily a single player gamer. Most of the RTS AI I have seen stink. I know an AI that can outthink a human is not here yet, if ever, but so many rts AI dont even attempt to really challenge. Even when the AI is given production advantages, or other bonuses, it doesnt take long to wear them down.

However, the above concerns noted, I will still be buying it.

	26-04-2003 19:52									#60
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Romanus, RoN will be anything but similar to any other RTS game...