16-02-2003 04:31									#1
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Roman Legion (iron) 3-3-1 *30 shields

or

Celt Gallic Swordsman (iron) 3-2-2 *50 shields

	16-02-2003 04:48									#2
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At the moment Im playing as the Celts quite a bit and I love the Gallic Swordsmen, but prior to PTW my favourite was the Legions of Rome.

	16-02-2003 08:16									#3
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Dunno.

Probably the Gallic Swordsman as it has mobility and attacking units don't really need defense, but then again it is more expensive.

Flip a coin.

	16-02-2003 08:40									#4
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Sipahi. Yes, they are expensive, but if you make a beeline for them you will have a unit that is awesome for the half of the Middle Ages and up until Infantry become common in the Industrial Age. Put them in an Army to get Blitz and they are even better.

	16-02-2003 08:57									#5
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I agree Warpstorm. Sipahi are the real deal. The key is to get them early. The domination is worth the cost.

	16-02-2003 16:03									#6
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I'd rather have 5 Legions than 3 Gal Swords.

	16-02-2003 16:03									#7
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I suspect that Caesar felt the same way.

	16-02-2003 20:10									#8
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Of those two, I'd agree with NYE's assessment, 3 Legions will be a better deal than 3 Gallic Swordsmen.

	16-02-2003 20:31									#9
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I hold by my early assessment (when PTW first came out) that the Numidian Mercs. are a tier 1 UU. The AI simply does not know how to deal with them. They're around and useful for the most critical parts of the game. They're flexible. They need not blow an early GA to be useful. They're just as useful as Swordsmen, have the same cost but do not require Iron. Against human opponents, their "deterrent" effect directly supports Carthage's traits (Industrious/Commercial - builder). And if the deterrent effect does not work, they repel attackers just as well as they promise to.

And they look darn cool.


Dominae

	16-02-2003 21:28									#10
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I would also say Sipahi. You rule the game as soon as they become available. They make up for whatever advantage other civs might have had in the time before their arrival

But in ancient times in my opinion legion is the most versatile. Num Mercs are kings of defence, and that's divine for builders (I still have a high degree of respect for hoplite as well, even after the advent of Num Mercs). While Num Mercs can make it easier in a supportive role to win a war, you can in all likelihood win a war only with legions, and the difference is essential.

As for Gallic Swords, it all depends whether you can churn out a meaningful number of them in a conflict situation. A stack of 10 Gallic Swordsmen would probably speel doom for the closest 3 or 4 enemy cities

	17-02-2003 00:08									#11
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Judging by the assessments on the Numidian Mercs, I'd say they're the best for multiplay. But for single play, I like using Chinese Riders, Arab Ansar Warriors, or Japanese Samurai. I don't really have favorite UUs. I've never tried Ottoman Sipahis, but I ought to try that sometime.

	17-02-2003 00:57									#12
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Definitely the Sipahi! or the Beserker The Roman legion comes a close second although I usually don't play aggressive in the ancient era. The problem with the Berserker is that its no longer so good when your opponents get Cavalry, but if you can take advantage of this in the meantime, it's a better alternative than the Longbowman or the Med. Infantry.

But I'll stick to the Siphai.

Oh, and an honorable mention to the Jaguar Warrior. Excellent against barbarians.

	17-02-2003 01:55									#13
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I like the greek hoplite. An early high defense means you can immediately go offensive with little fear of losing your cities in the couter-offensive. Put them behind walls and on a hill and they are near unstoppable early on.

	17-02-2003 01:58									#14
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I like the Rider. 3 movement points at that stage in the game is overpowering. They can be used for offense and defense, and are extremely effective at pillaging and oscillating tactics. A GA just outside of despotism makes them even more attractive. However, with Culture Linking on, you may have to deal with Samurai's at the same time.

	17-02-2003 02:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered I like the greek hoplite. An early high defense means you can immediately go offensive with little fear of losing your cities in the couter-offensive. Put them behind walls and on a hill and they are near unstoppable early on.

yea, one MP game, i was carthage, and i lost out on the GL by 1 turn to an AI, so i switched to the great wall. after i got it, i realized how insane my defense was.

my main border city, which were constantly under siege by rome / china, was on hills, with walls (now with double duty), across a river.

thats:

3 + 3 * ( 1 + .50 + .25 ) = 8.25, when the strongest unit attacking me were legionaries, attack of 3.

even riders with an attack of 4 wouldn't dent that. hell, CAVALRY would have problems with that! (ignore the fact that cavalry require the advance that makes the wall obsolete plz )

truly, a wonderful thing.

	17-02-2003 07:49									#16
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The Numidian Mercinaries are #1!!!

They are unbeatable on the defensive, respectable on the offensive, and can PILLAGE, PILLAGE, PILLAGE!!! (Ditto Uber's Merc + Great Wall + river analysis )

	17-02-2003 09:37									#17
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I agree, Legions are a much better unit than Gallic Swordsmen. In fact, I would even prefer a regular swordsmen to Gallic Swordsmen, since the latter is prohibitively expensive to the point of absurdity.

	17-02-2003 13:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I agree, Legions are a much better unit than Gallic Swordsmen. In fact, I would even prefer a regular swordsmen to Gallic Swordsmen, since the latter is prohibitively expensive to the point of absurdity.

When you consider that the Gallic swordsman combines the advantages of both the swordsman and horseman, i.e. strong on the offence and incredibly fast-moving, I think the extra price to pay is worth it especially when the crucial nature of early warfare is taken into consideration.

However, the berserk gets my vote - an attack of 6 and the ability to attack from ships at a time when no one has costal fortresses or defensive units with a defence of more than 4 allows for some serious conquering!

For me - 1. berserk 2. gallic swordsman 3. legion

	17-02-2003 14:35									#19
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I like Gallic Swords but that is probably due to editing them to only cost 40 shields - at 50 shields they are too expensive and legions are better value.

Having tried pretty much all the civs over the last few months I keep going back to Samurai - fast, only berserks have a higher attack at that stage of the game and nothing has better defence until riflemen.

	17-02-2003 22:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by David Murray When you consider that the Gallic swordsman combines the advantages of both the swordsman and horseman, i.e. strong on the offence and incredibly fast-moving, I think the extra price to pay is worth it especially when the crucial nature of early warfare is taken into consideration. However, the berserk gets my vote - an attack of 6 and the ability to attack from ships at a time when no one has costal fortresses or defensive units with a defence of more than 4 allows for some serious conquering! For me - 1. berserk 2. gallic swordsman 3. legion

David, conversely one could argue that the Legion combines the advantages of both the swordsman and pikeman, i.e. strong on the offence and the defence, This is especially important when considering the nature of early warfare.
This is all well and good of course, but the crucial thing here is that the G. Swordsman costs nearly twice as much as the Legion. And in fact, I would go as far as to say that I would prefer 5 regular swordsmen to 3 G. Swordsmen. That's just how absurd I feel that that their price is at present.

	17-02-2003 22:52									#21
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In terms of best overall UU, I would say that the most dominating is the Berserker, with honorable mention being handed to the Immortal and Mounted Warrior, but my favorite is the Numidian Mercenary or Impi.

	17-02-2003 23:26									#22
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It depends on the style of game and whether its MP or SP. Hoplite for a strict builder, NM for builder/warmonger, anything with 2 movement in ancient times for warmongers (best is impis, then GW, then warchariot, then JW).

Fast movers are the best in MP.

	18-02-2003 20:23									#23
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Sipahi, apart from everything already said: they give a golden age when it is most useful

	18-02-2003 21:24									#24
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Sipahis or legions. Legions are an all around great unit at the time when I do the most warmongering. Sipahis are great up until tanks come along. Since they're pretty strong and they retreat, Sipahis are good even against infantry. Also, since they're faster than tanks, I might keep a few around until modern armor.

	19-02-2003 00:25									#25
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It definitely seems like this discussion is slanted towards single player but I think that in both that the Mounted Warrior takes the win.

It's the cheapest 3 attack with 2 move and by the time you mass enough of them you can usually take down at least one opponent in single or multiplayer.

	19-02-2003 04:54									#26
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I am playing a game with Carthage and found the Num. Mercenary to be vital! If you build the great wall it'll practically make you invincible until Knights and Med. Infantry come along.

	19-02-2003 05:59									#27
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i like the extra move of the Gallic Swordsman

	19-02-2003 11:05									#28
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I am a bit perplexed by all of the people in favor of the Sipahi, even the illustrious Warpstorm. To me it seems to suffer from Gallic Swordsman syndrome, too expensive for too little. While it's cost isn't as crippling as the G. Swordsman, it's 8 attack is of little use in a period of 10 defense infantry, who are highly entrenched in cities or metropoli.

	19-02-2003 11:09									#29
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Although, I admit that Warp's strategy of a late middle age army of them would be highly effective. It seems to be a small window of usefulness, and difficult to pull off.

	19-02-2003 12:15									#30
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monkspider, I love your quote! thats to funny!