17-02-2003 06:11									#1
	The Magnifying Effect of Violence Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Tonight on "60 Minutes", Michael Moore was once again blaming much of the violence in the USA on guns while pointing out that Canadians have guns too. Doesn't that create a paradox if guns are the problem? I've never bought into the argument that depictions of violence in our mass media indirectly promote crime, but I'm beginning to wonder. When Rudy Guiliani took over in New York, he (his advisors) identified what they considered a problem related to crime - the "broken window" effect. When young people see a broken window, the urge to break some more windows increases. It's as if seeing broken windows, litter, etc., increases a dis-repect for other people and their property. But by that same token, the proliferation of down and gritty "violence" in our mass media, especially Hollywood, "de-sensitizes" people to violence while glamorising it too leading to more violence.

Certain facts are to be ignored in this country, like the fact that crime in this country is dis-proportionally committed by blacks and, to a lesser extent hispanics. And what does Hollywood (and the music industry) put out? A gloomy and violent picture of black culture. If young blacks are constantly told the culture they will soon be entering is violent, do they become more violent? Obviously, the drug war is just one powerful engine driving violence in this country, but is Hollywood another? And if so, where are the liberal politicians who decry guns while supporting Hollywood and the drug war? Where was Michael Moore's indictment of Hollywood?

	17-02-2003 06:18									#2
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The ease of getting a gun in the US does make violence easier in that if you have it, you're likely to use it if you feel the need.

I remember a statistic where someone compared the US with 5 or 6 European countries where the population combined matched the US. 30k murders a year in the US but just 250 in the combined other population*

TV does de-sensitise people to violence but I've seen a lot of violence on television or on film and have no inclination to go out and commit some.

*note the figure given is almost certainly wrong as it's been a while but I suspect reasonably close +/-50.

	17-02-2003 06:27									#3
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Hollywood does indeed influence people's behavior whether they like to admit it or not. We are all influenced by Hollywood and need to realize that Hollywood needs to take respobsibility for the messages it sends out.

The response will be "it's not our job to censor what kids are watching, it's up to the parents." Yeah well unfortunatley alot of kids grow up with the tv as their parents so that's not an option.

	17-02-2003 06:29									#4
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Who are you and what have you done with Berzerker?

	17-02-2003 06:30									#5
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Hypocrite.

(just kidding Berz )

	17-02-2003 06:51									#6
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Even though I am a liberal, I am against banning guns. The criminals would just use knives or clubs and being shot in the head is a lot less painful than getting stabbed to death. Even worse, law-abiding citizens have no guns, but Mr. Mobbster gets an AK-47 off the black market.

	17-02-2003 06:53									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Even though I am a liberal, I am against banning guns. The criminals would just use knives or clubs and being shot in the head is a lot less painful than getting stabbed to death. Even worse, law-abiding citizens have no guns, but Mr. Mobbster gets an AK-47 off the black market.

Yes, a criminal in the middle of a robbery will spend precious time stabbing you to death, which a gun would allow him to do in a second. The question is why in gods name would you want citizens to have guns in the first place? What need do they have of them?

Oh yes that M16 rifle? Ah thats for home protection, same with the AK47, G3 sniper rifle and mini-gun. Can't be too careful these days!

	17-02-2003 07:13									#8
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violence is a poor mans crime. blacks on the whole are poorer than whites. bezerker you should watch bowling for columbine...moore goes on more to explain that its american culture combined with guns that lead to the problems.

	17-02-2003 08:25									#9
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Demerzel
The question is why in gods name would you want citizens to have guns in the first place? What need do they have of them? /QUOTE]

Hunting and as a crime deterent. (If Mr. Mugger sees you have a gun, he won't mug you.)

	17-02-2003 10:42									#10
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quote: The question is why in gods name would you want citizens to have guns in the first place? What need do they have of them?

Simple answer - none of your business, and none of the government's, either.

	17-02-2003 10:48									#11
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"We should allow one legal murder per month" -george carlin

So true, solves alot of problem. Maybe depopulating some @$$holes as well!

	17-02-2003 11:08									#12
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Berz, I think you raise a point :
TV, movies and videogames have always displayed violence (and do display violence everywhere in the world), and it doesn't always leads to the mass murders you have in the US.
OTOH, the depiction of the black culture as a whole like a violent culture is a real problem. Violence tends to be accepted as the normal behaviour by young blacks, if they get influenced by this media. Worse, because hollywood movies are cool, their friends can exert a peer pressure to push them in this violent culture. The representatives of this culture (musicians, artists) further the violence of this culture in their works.
All messages we send to young people are to be taken with responsibility. The general depiction of the black culture as a violent one is very important in the sheer number of murders in the US (but it's not the only reason at all)

	17-02-2003 11:24									#13
	Re: The Magnifying Effect of Violence Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Tonight on "60 Minutes", Michael Moore was once again blaming much of the violence in the USA on guns while pointing out that Canadians have guns too. Doesn't that create a paradox if guns are the problem?

His point wasn't that an outright ban on guns was necessary.

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

But the fact is that it's harder to get a gun in Canada than in the US. And we've been keeping track of handgun ownership for years (just started on rifles and shotguns).

But it's easier for a minor to watch what would be an R-rated movie in the states (our ratings system is usually easier on violence, sexual content and bad language). So how does this argument hold up at all?

	17-02-2003 11:28									#14
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Frogger :
Do you have an alienated ethnic minority in Canada too, which finds its moral bearings in Hollywood movies and mass-consumption music ? that has values which don't have anything to do with the values of everybody else ?

	17-02-2003 11:30									#15
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Yes.

	17-02-2003 11:30									#16
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You've pretty much described my home province to the letter right there.

	17-02-2003 11:33									#17
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Oh, BTW: the murder rate for whites in the US is also a hell of a lot higher than it is for whites up here. It may only be 2 or 3 times as much instead of the overall 4 or 5 times as much for the US, but do you mind explaining that?

	17-02-2003 11:34									#18
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I'm wondering what your home province is... It must be hard to fathom himself and his society as a violent enemy of the rest of society, for lack of any more convincing bearing.

Tsss, et dire que depuis tout ce temps, on aurait pu troller en Français, rien que pour emmerder les Américains...

	17-02-2003 11:35									#19
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Quebec, Spiffor...

	17-02-2003 11:35									#20
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"murder rate for whites" = "murder rate done by whites in comparison to other races" ?

	17-02-2003 11:36									#21
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That's what I meant...

	17-02-2003 11:39									#22
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Read one of David Floyd's post on the issue and you'll understand. He'd kill if someone stole him a candy. I also think the fear Micheal Moore talks about is playing a role. Especially since blacks are more or less systematically representend as a violent counter-society (mostly by the Blacks themselves)

	17-02-2003 11:43									#23
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quote: But it's easier for a minor to watch what would be an R-rated movie in the states (our ratings system is usually easier on violence, sexual content and bad language). So how does this argument hold up at all?

The broken window effect. It's a combination of the "gangsta" culture, Hollywood, Rap music, the drug war, and a higher black population that buys into the culture. Canada sees the effects of Hollywood and music, but not the others. Poverty may be another factor, but I think that is more tenuous. There are poor peoples all around the world that don't have alot of violence, and it doesn't help when liberals keep telling blacks they aren't responsible but that rich white people are to blame. That was essentially what the Nazis told Germans, that the Jews were to blame for their problems, and we see the violence that led to...

	17-02-2003 11:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Read one of David Floyd's post on the issue and you'll understand. He'd kill if someone stole him a candy. I also think the fear Micheal Moore talks about is playing a role. Especially since blacks are more or less systematically representend as a violent counter-society (mostly by the Blacks themselves)

That's exactly it. And the hollywood explanation (people are desensitized) is pretty crap, as far as I'm concerned. The thought that Hollywood specifically changes the expectations of young blacks and latinos is a different issue...

	17-02-2003 11:47									#25
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quote: Poverty may be another factor, but I think that is more tenuous. There are poor peoples all around the world

Actually, Moore specifically pointed this out in his movie.

I disagree with this point, but it's hard to see how come you're attacking him for agreeing with you.

	17-02-2003 11:50									#26
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The difference as far as I see it is that in the US the relative poverty is so starkly visible. I've never seen ghettos in Canada like I saw in the US. And just a few blocks away were the houses where all the rich folk lived. It made me sort of sick.

The worst example of this I've ever seen was when I went through Atlantic City. One block it's casinos and beautifully lit streets, the next it's shacks and pawn shops.

	17-02-2003 11:51									#27
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Plus, in most other countries the poor are given reason to have the feeling that the government actually gives a damn about them...

	17-02-2003 11:53									#28
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I disagree with the effect of Hollywood in explaining the disparity in crime rates between the US and other Western states. At best, it's a minor effect on crime rates. The same applies to number of guns in our society.

Rather, the primary reasons are the war on drugs and the inequal distribution of wealth, which of course is strongly related with the war on drugs.

	17-02-2003 11:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Simple answer - none of your business, and none of the government's, either.

Of course it is. Gun ownship creates a social cost. Are you going to foot the whole thing?

	17-02-2003 11:54									#30
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Poverty is the main reason.

I found it odd Berserker actually mentioned rap music in one of his(her?) causes above.

I'm certainly not a fan of rap music, but I don't think it causes largescale violence. The reason it's popular is because violence is so largescale...