17-02-2003 17:11									#1
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quote: G. 3. The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command. a. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal. b. The Senator must state one Consul, Minister or official appointed by the Consulate he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'. c. During 36 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply. d. After the first 36 hours have passed, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. e The replacement proposal vote must be open for at least 36 hours. f. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise. g. If any candidate gets more votes than any other candidate and more than the subject person, he will get the vacancy. If the subject person gets more votes than any candidate, he will stay in the job. If there is a tie between any number of persons, the Consulate chooses between the persons who received the most votes. h. A Consul or Minister may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.

I intend to propose this amendment as a replacement for section G.3. Not because I like to propose amendments, or because I love to organize votes, but because I think it is in the best interest of this game. Please note that all unnecessary bureaucracy has been excluded from this text.

This text has been discussed upon in
this thread. I made some minor changes, to avoid possible confusion.

However, I feel that this deserves a thread of its own. So, please discuss pros and cons here, first.

	17-02-2003 17:14									#2
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I support this amendment.

	17-02-2003 19:05									#3
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hi ,

"for at least 36 hours"

, maybe we should make it 48 with a max of 72

have a nice day

	17-02-2003 19:48									#4
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I propose the replacement vote also be done with a preferential ballot, as the original Consul election was. That way the winner of the replacement election will have an absolute majority of support, not just a plurality.

(The mechanics will be simpler because only one person will be elected: just eliminate the lowest person and move his ballots to the piles of the next choices until someone gets 50% of the vote + 1 vote.)

We also need something to say that if the senator or consul wins the Replacement vote, he be immune from CoC votes for a little while, say three or four turns. Also that CoC votes cannot be proposed for the first couple of turns, say two. That way people aren’t subject to CoC votes at every turn.

So:

replace with g. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot.
i. No CoC may be proposed for the first two turns after a general election.
j. If a subject person wins the CoC election, he shall be immune from CoC votes for four turns.

I don’t know how to put these suggestions into legal language The number of turns can be changed.

g.

	17-02-2003 22:09									#5
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I second Pikesfan in his both proposals. This would make the amendment a better one. Anyway I support it either as it is now or with the modifications

	17-02-2003 23:20									#6
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Yes, quite, very good. (to everyone, I guess)

	17-02-2003 23:44									#7
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Could you please write your proposal in an outline format like the Con is written?

	18-02-2003 01:09									#8
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What is an 'outline format' ?

	18-02-2003 01:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster What is an 'outline format' ?

hi ,

"Could you please write your proposal in an outline format like the Con is written?"

this is probably what is meant , .....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 02:46									#10
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I am against this proposal for one reason... it screws up the clarity of format and lines of authority present in the current Constitution.

Currently...

The population elects and authorizes the power of the Consuls. The Consuls select and authorize the power of the Ministers.

As such, the Consuls may be removed by the population and the Ministers (in turn), may be removed by the Consuls.

Clear lines of legitimate authority and responsibility.

So my problem with this ammendment is that it just messes with the system without actually fully changing it to another clearly defined alternative.

If you want to ELECT your ministers to begin with, then do a wholesale change. Elect the ministers just like we elect the other ministers in the SPDG. But if you want the Ministers to be appointed by the Consuls, then don't make them removable upon a whim by the electorate. Keep the lines of authority and responsiblity clear.

If you want to keep the power for the Consuls to name the ministers, then let them keep the power to remove them at will and hold the Consuls responsible (the clarity of the current system).

	18-02-2003 03:02									#11
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Arnelos, you do have a point... but the initial purpose of this amendment was, IIRC, to clarify the issue with having to name a replacement when initiating a no-con/CoC vote (the current wording in the Constitution does not allow for "mini elections" to be held).

Would specifically stating that the procedure applies to Consuls CoC's only (rather, that CoC may be called upon Consuls only) be what you'd like to have?

	18-02-2003 03:21									#12
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Sure. Apply it to Consuls, as those should be able to be removed and replaced by the population at will.

The Consuls need to be held accountable to the population at large.

No problem with that

	18-02-2003 03:35									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Sure. Apply it to Consuls, as those should be able to be removed and replaced by the population at will. The Consuls need to be held accountable to the population at large. No problem with that

In that case, I would suggest changing the wording to:

a. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official.
b. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'.

[snip]

h. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.

This is a generic wording allowing to automatically extend the validity of this rule to other posts, should we decide to make them elected in the future.

Before anyone objects that Senators may wish to remove a Minister they do not like... keep in mind, that Consuls are not obliged to follow the advices of their Ministers. The Constitution only states they "should" do so. If they disagree with what their Minister suggest, they may override his suggestion more or less at will (common sense dictates that they shall do so with care, checking what the Senate wants). And vice versa, if they do follow his advice, they are the ones to be held responsible in the first place.

	18-02-2003 07:29									#14
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Another electoral suggestion:

If there are Change of Command proposals for more than one Consul, then the two (or three) shall be combined in one ballot and we use STV.

You can tell I brake for STV. You should see how glued to my computer I am whenever the Australian Senate or the Irish Dáil is being elected Unfortunately it’s not one of those things you can use in normal day-to-day RL

	18-02-2003 08:30									#15
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Hee hee.

I have spreadsheets upon spreadsheets of stuff I keep track of for U.S. Domestic elections

But, of course, that's related to my field in RL

	18-02-2003 15:04									#16
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Good points, all! I included them in the amendment below.

Changes made:

• Included maximum times for elections (48 hours)
  
• Changed voting method to preferential ballot (might need to be worked out somewhere else - I'm not sure this is 100% unambiguous)
  
• Included immunity after installation (for five turns)
  
• Changed CoC to Elected Officials only
  
• Applied what I think is an 'outline format'

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 18-02-2003 at 15:09

	18-02-2003 16:43									#17
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hi ,

BigFurryMonster , the time lines seem a bit short , okay we should speed things up , .... but since we have people from all over the world , is it not a bit to fast , given the hours we have , .....( above )

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 17:00									#18
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Well, it ensures that only active members apply

But I'd like to hear others on this.

	18-02-2003 17:08									#19
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BFM

In regard to the timeline, I agree with Panag. 48 hours for the duration of the poll seems a little bit too rushed. How about 3 days?

"e The replacement proposal vote must be open for at least 36 hours, with a maximum of 72 hours."

	18-02-2003 17:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius BFM In regard to the timeline, I agree with Panag. 48 hours for the duration of the poll seems a little bit too rushed. How about 3 days? "e The replacement proposal vote must be open for at least 36 hours, with a maximum of 72 hours."

hi ,

, what about 72 hours , no more no less , ......

just three days seems fine , some people travel , RL , isp going down , etc , .....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 17:30									#21
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How about this:

The replacement proposal vote must be open until at least xx % (50, 66?) of the Senate has voted in it. After 72 hours the poll can/must(?) be closed, regardless of how many Senators have expressed their right to vote.

	18-02-2003 17:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius How about this: The replacement proposal vote must be open until at least xx % (50, 66?) of the Senate has voted in it. After 72 hours the poll can/must(?) be closed, regardless of how many Senators have expressed their right to vote.

hi ,

, ..... okay , sounds great , but why keep a number of posters , read senators have posted , ... many are here just to watch , others check in ones a week , .... there shall be times there shall only be like ten votes or so , .....

we could just drop the "%" of senators , that should do it , ....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 17:42									#23
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Hence the 50% and not 75%. If there is much interest and in 48 hours we will have the 50%, there's no reason to keep the poll open another 24 hours and it can be closed immidiately. Of course, only if the result is not very tight.

Just my 2 cents.

	18-02-2003 18:27									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Hence the 50% and not 75%. If there is much interest and in 48 hours we will have the 50%, there's no reason to keep the poll open another 24 hours and it can be closed immidiately. Of course, only if the result is not very tight. Just my 2 cents.

hi ,

, we could close the poll if 50 % has voted after 48 hours or so , ....

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 19:50									#25
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I am against this % of senators deal.

What determins the actual number of Senators? The civgroup? Since there will be lurkers or people who just come to see whats going on every now and then, this number will be skewed. Previous polls? Can't do this for the same reasons as above. Plus if I (or anyone for that matter) don't care about the results of the poll, then they don't vote and again skews the number of senators.

Leave it at a timeline of some sort. I think two days is plenty, but I'm here everyday. Some people are not. Three days should be good.

About the amount of time that a Consol is immune from a CoC: One week should be good. Early on in this game, it is going to go fairly quick. Later it will slow down. Lets have this "immunity period" be a set amount of real time and not game time.

Additionally, should we add a clause that says only one Consulor can be under a CoC at a time? To keep our government intact even during a transition time?

	18-02-2003 20:18									#26
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Good to see that the discussion I started has been trasformed into an amendment. I support this amentment in its current form. Arnelos point was a good one.
There is but still soemting strange about this amendment. I quote the section h:

quote: h. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.

My comment on this: One does not propose his own Change of Command vote: one does not have little confidence in what he is doing. If a consul wants to be replaced, give him the freedom to resign. I agree that we can use quite the same procedure for this, but it's rediculous to post a Non-Confidence motion (as it was formerly called) against yourself.

Therefore I suggest that we include this article to the Consulate Chapter of the Constitution:

quote: 10. A Consul may resign from office during his term. a. Any Consul has the right to resign from office at any time during his term. He should have reasonable reasons for this. The complexity of the task may not be a reason to resign. b. The Consul has to propose a Motion of Resign in which he posts that he wants to end his term before the official ending. c. The Consul has to make clear which reasons he has for his resign from office in the Motion of Resign. d. The Motion of Resign marks the start of the Resigning Procedure. e. During 36 hours after the Resign Procedure has started with the Motion of the Resigning , any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Consul himself may not apply. f. After the first 36 hours, but within 48 hours, the Consul must organize a vote - this is called the 'Replacement Proposal for Resigning'. This vote must contain three options: the options to agree or disagree with the resigning of the Consul and the option to choose any candidate from the list to replace the current Consul. g. The text for the first option has to be "Yes I agree with the resigning of Consul ...", in which the ... comply to the name of the Consul. the text for the second option has to be "No I disagree with the resigning of Consul ...", in which the ... comply to the name of the Consul. h.The Proposal of Replacement for Resign may be posted in two forms: a poll or a vote-by-post. i. The replacement proposal vote must be open for at least 36 hours, with a maximum of 48 hours. k. The Replacement Proposal for Resign must include all candidates. l. The Replacement Proposal for Resigning shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election. If a majority of the votes is against the resigning of the Consul who posted the Motion of Resigning, the Consul is not authorized to resign from officeand has to fulfil his term. m. An elected official may only propose a Motion of Resign vote on himself, and not on another one. n. The newly elected Consul may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.

Please have some comments on this.

If you have read this long proposal well, you might have noted the integration of the two elections in one. This spares us at least 36 hours between the removal of one official and the replacement of this official with the winning candidate. This can also be fitted in the amendment of the CoC vote.
Perhaps something to think about?

Aidun

	18-02-2003 20:24									#27
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This is why the NoCon vote was renamed to Change of Command: not only does it sound friendlier, it also opens up the possibility for a Consul to say: "I've done my job - who wants it?"

	18-02-2003 20:36									#28
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Thanks for your comment BFM.

I still find it strange to propose such, but perhaps thats just depending on me.

Any comments on my previous post from others?

I still suggest to include an article like this for the consuls too, so that that section h can be deleted: it doesnt affect the senate and thus doesn't belong in the Senate Chapter. I can imagine that people find it only more confusing if we include rules for other officials in the Senate Chapter.

Please also some comments on this.

Thanks,

Aidun.

	18-02-2003 20:44									#29
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Section h does affect the Senate, just not the entire Senate. Since Consuls are a part of the Senate, too, an exception is made for them through section h.

	18-02-2003 21:00									#30
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quote: I am against this % of senators deal. What determins the actual number of Senators? The civgroup? Since there will be lurkers or people who just come to see whats going on every now and then, this number will be skewed. Previous polls? Can't do this for the same reasons as above. Plus if I (or anyone for that matter) don't care about the results of the poll, then they don't vote and again skews the number of senators. Leave it at a timeline of some sort. I think two days is plenty, but I'm here everyday. Some people are not. Three days should be good.

I think people misunderstood me on this one. I'll try to explain it better:

First of all, I find the 48 hours period as being too short, and I think I'm not the only one. Therefor the proposal to make it 72 hours (3 days). I agree that 3 days should be enough for any poll.

But then, the ammendment would sound like this: "The replacement proposal vote must be open at least 36 hours but no longer than 72 hours" That would leave room for interpretations. Who and how would decide when to close a poll?

IMHO we have 2 possibilities:
1. we state exactly the duration of polls (" the proposal vote must be opened for exactly 3 days")
or
2. we set a maximum duration for the poll and put in a clause for closing the poll earlier. This clause would be that certain number of senators (it could be any number; 33, 50, whatever it proves to be optimal) to vote. It doesn't mean that the poll will remain open for 2 weeks because nobody voted in it. No, the poll would be closed no later than after 72 hours, with the possibility to close it earlier if a significant number of senators have voted in it.

That's it. I'm OK with any of the options. I just wanted to optimize the procedure.