17-02-2003 21:26									#1
	Information Distribution (Reports, Saves, Shots, Logs) Support Apolyton

These questions are engineered to start a discussion - for afaik, there isn't really solid answers to be found in this forum for all of them yet.

How is the team planning on handling and distributing files and information from these soures?

- Saves
- Chat Logs
- Screenshots (World Map, Cities, Demographics, Histograph, Scores)

Will the consuls post the save file for general viewing?
If Yes, will there be specific rules/guidelines provided about loading and viewing the save? (Not everyone in this game is in the PtWDG.)

If No, how will information be provided to the team? A nicely formatted text report? Spreadsheet screenshots? In game screenshots? (Yes, I saw Vondrack's nice sample report prior to the consul election.)

What in-game screenshots will be provided to the team? Will there be any standards for their creation? (size, resolution, gridlines on/off, zoom on/off)

There is some information that is not convenient to capture by screenshots as well, like military advisor information (relative strengths, barbarian notices) and trade possibilities. This information must also be reported. (I cannot recall if Vondrack's sample had this sort of thing.)

On the RP Team, OliverFA and DAVOUT do a great job of analysis using the Scores and Histograph screenshots - letting us know when other civs added cities, expanded borders, connected luxuries, etc. However, they didn't begin right at the start because we weren't making a conscious attempt to capture the relevant information for them. It would be good to have an information distribution system in place from the start so that Ministry of Information is not begging for saves and shots.

Also, assuming this forum isn't going to get attachment capability soon (MarkG?), how are files going to be provided? We have a few people on the RP Team with extra webspace, and I'm sure the same is true here - but once again, it would be nice to have a place we could bookmark from the beginning that will have an index of files, or at least the most current ones.

Okay, discuss!

	17-02-2003 22:10									#2
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I suggest that we don't use websites to store sensitive data, unless it's protected by a server-side password mechanism (HTTP password authentication is good enough). Otherwise, the URL to that site could easily get leaked out, even unintentionally.
I have set up a common mailbox for GS at www.softhome.net. The quota is 15 MBs and the mailbox can be accessed from anywhere via an easy webmail interface. There is also an option to check the box via POP3, but it will only accept one POP3 query every 10 minutes, so it's recommended that we all use the webmail interface. Alternatively, any other free Email provider can be used, but I recommend that we use Softhome.
Naturally, the password should be random (and therefore, unguessable by a human), and should be changed periodically. Here is an excellent web-based random password generator.

Or we could just encrypt the shots and saves and put them up on some website, and teach everyone to use PGP.

	17-02-2003 22:12									#3
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Would anyone mind if I set up a common mailbox for us at Softhome right now?

What username should I choose (our address will be username@softhome.net)? Would 'Apolytonteam' suffice, or do we want to go with the shorter 'polyteam'?

	17-02-2003 22:45									#4
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OK, time for me to step in.

Shiber, even if I appreciate this efforts of yours, unlike another one in the past, don't set up any accounts, please.

I have already arranged with Markos that the files we need to store somewhere (pictures, saves, XLS sheets, and the like) will be stored here at Poly. Markos has already started working on a user interface allowing us to upload/manage the files - I am sure it will take only a couple of days before that thing is up and running. Until then, I can use my own server space, even if it is not password protected. Unless someone leaks the address that will be found in this private forum only, there is no danger of other teams taking a peek. And if someone tells this address to another team, then he can send them the pictures anyway - it would just be a matter of "comfort". Also, I believe that all teams swore not to cheat - that is enough for me.

FYI, 15MB is way too little. Files for one turn need something like 150-500kB on average, so we would run out of space very soon.

	17-02-2003 23:00									#5
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That's great, vondrack! And thanks, Mark!

That answers one big question - would you care to share your thoughts on the others?

	17-02-2003 23:16									#6
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That solution sounds much better. Thanks Markos!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Unless someone leaks the address that will be found in this private forum only, there is no danger of other teams taking a peek.

That's far from true, but I'm willing to trust the other teams.

quote: FYI, 15MB is way too little. Files for one turn need something like 150-500kB on average, so we would run out of space very soon.

I realized that. The solution that I proposed was only a temporary one (although we are happy with it at Gathering Storm, for now).

quote: Originally posted by dejon That answers one big question - would you care to share your thoughts on the others?

On the matter of screens, I suppose that at the start of the game, just the main view would be enough.
I suggest that we activate gridding, although it's not really necessary.

	17-02-2003 23:28									#7
	Re: Information Distribution (Reports, Saves, Shots, Logs) Get a bigger avatar today!

As I will most probably become the Consul responsible primarily for making information available, I will take the opportunity to present my ideas here. Mind you, not all of them were discussed with other Consuls. I have had a chat with nye (but not with Ninot), so some parts are at least lightly consulted, but most if that is my own idea of the whole information agenda.

Do not be surprised if another Consul expresses his disagreement with what I am going to post here - we haven't had time to coordinate our stances and we will probably use this thread to clarify our viewpoints.

quote: Originally posted by dejon How is the team planning on handling and distributing files and information from these soures? - Saves - Chat Logs - Screenshots (World Map, Cities, Demographics, Histograph, Scores)

We have touched the issue of the savegame with nye shortly. We believe that generally, the save shall be available to anyone who asks for - not making it public means preventing people from studying things (like the F11 screen, e.g.). However, to at least know who has access to it, we will probably make it available as a password-protected ZIP file, providing the password to people that ask for it. It goes without saying, I hope, that it would NOT be allowed to play moves differently than in the real ISDG (to reveal different areas of the shroud). The only actual "testing" may be done by adjusting sliders, reassigning worked tiles etc.

However, one thing that has come very handy for us Legos, was a simulator created by Kloreep and later recreated and currently maintained by Tiberius. The simulator is basically a single-player scenario played on a custom made map. The map is being updated every turn, as new tiles are uncovered. It sure has its limitations (and the process is quite laborious), but it is very handy when you need to verify a plan prepared in an XLS sheet actually works.

quote: Originally posted by dejon Will the consuls post the save file for general viewing? If Yes, will there be specific rules/guidelines provided about loading and viewing the save? (Not everyone in this game is in the PtWDG.)

As indicated before, the save will be available, but the access to it will be kind of monitored. Every person getting the password will have to agree to abide by the instructions for loading and using the savegame. I would appreciate if someone put a "How to handle PBEM Saves Safely" guide together for us. I know I will be able to write one, just that all this ISDG stuff takes enormous amounts of time and I may not be able to do it very soon.

quote: Originally posted by dejon If No, how will information be provided to the team? A nicely formatted text report? Spreadsheet screenshots? In game screenshots? (Yes, I saw Vondrack's nice sample report prior to the consul election.)

For every turn, the following information will be made available:

1) incoming+"played" savegame (in a password-protected ZIP file)
2) a list of every single action taken ingame
3) the map as of the end of the turn (two sizes, see below)
4) a city/empire summary as of the end of the turn, like the one shown here (picture) together with the XLS file used to create it
5) the top 5 cities list (picture) - see the same post as 4)
6) the Demographics details (picture) - see the same post as 4)

quote: Originally posted by dejon What in-game screenshots will be provided to the team? Will there be any standards for their creation? (size, resolution, gridlines on/off, zoom on/off)

See above. The map images will be provided in two sizes (GIF format used):

1) 800 x something overall image, viewable directly in a summary thread like InfoCentral (stored for past turns)
2) Actual Size image, available - because of the file size - perhaps for the most recent turn only

Gridlines will be on for all images, as it's rather difficult to refer to places on the map without seeing the grid.

quote: Originally posted by dejon There is some information that is not convenient to capture by screenshots as well, like military advisor information (relative strengths, barbarian notices) and trade possibilities. This information must also be reported. (I cannot recall if Vondrack's sample had this sort of thing.)

No decision adopted on this yet, but my personal opinion is that most of this kind of detailed information shall be gathered and periodically updated by the Ministers and their teams, according to the savegames available.

quote: Originally posted by dejon On the RP Team, OliverFA and DAVOUT do a great job of analysis using the Scores and Histograph screenshots - letting us know when other civs added cities, expanded borders, connected luxuries, etc. However, they didn't begin right at the start because we weren't making a conscious attempt to capture the relevant information for them. It would be good to have an information distribution system in place from the start so that Ministry of Information is not begging for saves and shots.

Agreed. This kind of analysis shall be the job of Ministry of Information. All the necessary information will be archived from Turn 1 and made available (if necessary, easily reconstructed by using the corresponding savegame and the list of actions taken in a given turn).

quote: Originally posted by dejon Also, assuming this forum isn't going to get attachment capability soon (MarkG?), how are files going to be provided? We have a few people on the RP Team with extra webspace, and I'm sure the same is true here - but once again, it would be nice to have a place we could bookmark from the beginning that will have an index of files, or at least the most current ones.

As mentioned in the previous post, MarkG has already started working on a way to allow us to store images on the Poly server, linking to them using the img tag.

	17-02-2003 23:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by dejon That answers one big question - would you care to share your thoughts on the others?

Find them above - this kind of posts takes time to be put together...

Just BTW, can someone tell me if the image below is visible (if it is, the issue of storing files on the Poly server is solved)?

	17-02-2003 23:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Do not be surprised if another Consul expresses his disagreement with what I am going to post here - we haven't had time to coordinate our stances and we will probably use this thread to clarify our viewpoints.

I am sure no one will have a problem with that - in fact I would encourage the Consuls to have discussions in front of the Senate as opposed to behind closed doors.

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Find them above - this kind of posts takes time to be put together... Just BTW, can someone tell me if the image below is visible (if it is, the issue of storing files on the Poly server is solved)?

Yes - the image is there! Yea!

Thanks for your detailed thoughts on everything.

One comment - The Ministers should check their information sources every turn (not periodically) and then just let us know of significant changes. Otherwise, something could be missed - like barbarian tribes near one of our cities.

	18-02-2003 20:31									#10
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Some web site would be much more convient than sending everything to members mail boxes.

My own E-mail provider has a 1 MB limit on attachments sent to me, with an overall limit of 6 MB in my mail box.