18-02-2003 18:11									#1
	ok, as the secrecy is broken ... Put an end to popups!

ok guys, the next scenario will be one covering Operation Market Garden. my intention behind revealing this topic was that fairline guessed right what i´m creating since a couple of weeks of planning and information-gathering.

well, i´m not looking forward to a september 17 release but this will take some time. some weeks, maybe a month. the map is about 40% finished, like the units.

- darth, would you mind telling me how you created the gfx for the nighttimes in your bulge scenario?

- anyone else: i would need a daimler mk.II armored car (look in the ww2-79 gfx thread for pics)

thanx in advance. i´m going to post the progress in this thread

	18-02-2003 20:26									#2
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ok, the shield i´m using:

1st row: Germany, Fallschirm-Armee, SS, Swastika, German Cross x2, 2 different types of the division sign of the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich";

2nd row: USA, 82nd Airborne "All American", 1st Allied Airborne Army, 101st Airborne "Screaming Eagles", USAAF, US 1st Army sign;

3rd row: UK, 1st Parachute Division, XXX Corps, Canada, RAF, Guards Armoured Division "Ever Seeing", 43rd Wessex Division, 50th Northumbrian Division, Royal Dutch Princess Irene Brigade sign.

Attachment: shields.gif
This has been downloaded 431 time(s).

	18-02-2003 20:40									#3
	and some units ... Inflate your Upload Space

1st row: british MG troop, Crusader Mk.II AA Tank, 15cm Nebelwerfer 41, Vickers Mk.I MG, AT Infantry;

2nd row: Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V), Mortar, 7.5cm PaK 40, M8 75mm Pack Howitzer, Mk.II Sexton

Attachment: unitsample.gif
This has been downloaded 427 time(s).

	18-02-2003 20:55									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

How are you going work the end? Is it possible for the allies to win? And if it is are you going to include an alternate path if they lose? For example, the evacuation across the Rhine in little rafts under the cover of darkness?

	18-02-2003 21:07									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

well, astonishing questions. i´ll try answering.

(1) the rivers are 1-2 squares broad, so you will need to secure the brigdes or use some rafts. using rafts will make your troopers even more vulnerable.

(2) i´m right now not to sure if the bridges will be represented by cities or terrains or units. this i´ll have to decide. what do you think???

- i prefer the bridges as
o cities
o terrains
o units

each possibility has its advantages, i know.

(3) it will be that way: if the allies are able to secure all the objectives that are given, i see no problem that the allies succeed in Operation Market Garden. but believe me, reaching all objectives (in time) will not be easy/possibly (?).

(4) if the operation should fail, you may need to retreat. this will be event-based action.

satisfying answers .... ?

	18-02-2003 21:30									#6
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I just went into PSP and set the brightness to -50% on the images

	18-02-2003 21:40									#7
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Longlife to XXX Corps!

I can't wait for this.

	18-02-2003 22:40									#8
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Jim, I did a small experimental Market-garden scenario a few years ago. It was a half-scale conceptual model for testing my bridge capture/demolition system. More recently, I've been collecting detailed OOB info. Since you're ready to go, I'd be happy to share the material with you if you'd be interested.

	18-02-2003 23:15									#9
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Great subject jim. Just to be pedantic, you got a couple of the British Divisional shields wrong. Yhe 43rd Wessex division symbol was a gold wyvern on a blue ground, and the 50th Northumbrian Division had 2 red 'T's on a black ground:

Attachment: 43 50 div.gif
This has been downloaded 392 time(s).

	19-02-2003 03:03									#10
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what happen in the open-market operation??

	19-02-2003 03:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur what happen in the open-market operation??

?????????

	19-02-2003 03:17									#12
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It was Monty's plan to end the war before christmas.

Paratroopers were to fall in occupied Holland and secure vital bridges/roads that would open the way to Germany.

The paras would have to hold out and repell German counterattacks until the XXX armoured corps blasts through from Belgium and links up with them.

The allied high command believed it was going to be a walk in the park since according to their information the Werchmact was comprised by that time of "old men in bycycles".

The operation ended in total disaster as the Werchmact was not made up of "old men with bycycles".

The allies lost 17.000 men to the Germans 500 dead and 1000 wounded.

Paras from Britain, USA and Poland participated.

	19-02-2003 03:24									#13
	Remove this text

Sorry to say this Stephan, but the American MG looks crap.
I like the howitzer though.

BTW how many projects are you working on?

1.Sevastopole
2.That Iraq thing
3.Ottoman Empire
4.Cold war
and 5. A bridge too far.
Hope i am not forgeting something.

You can of course do what you want, but don't you think that simultaneous work on more than 4 scenarios is going to impair the overall quality?

However if you need any more help with the events or something just ask.

	19-02-2003 03:24									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Shaka, it was the largest airborne operation designed in WWII. The main plan was that a carpet of airborne troops would be laid down across Holland to secure various bridges, the most important of which were in Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem, this last bridge being the biggest 'prize' as it was on the Rhine and over it the allies could drive right over and into the industrial heartland of Germany. Over the airborne carpet of troops XXX Corps, from Monty's army, would race across Holland and reach the bridge at Arnhem in 72 hours, having set out from some place in northeast Belgium.

Everything began on schedule, but there was only one road and XXX Corps ran into a Panzergrenadier division and by the end of the week they were just outside Arnhem. The British paratroopers in Arnhem were, however, reduced to two enclaves, and without supplies (the Germans overran the drop zones) and cut in half (half division remained in the HQ area with Urquhart, 9 miles from Arnhem, and the other half in Arnhem) were overrun. The British in Arnhem surrendered after ten days, and those who could escape of Urquhart's were rescued by the Polish Brigade and were able to make it over a river at night and back to the British line.

	19-02-2003 03:26									#15
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I see Palaiologos has also seen 'A Bridge Too Far'... brilliant movie, I must say.

	19-02-2003 03:52									#16
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It was Nijmegen...

It was before Nijmegen....

It was the fog in England....


Quote from the movie.

	19-02-2003 03:54									#17
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Monty is proud and pleased. He believes the operation was 90% successfull.....



Another quote from the movie.

	19-02-2003 07:38									#18
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It was the single road to Nijmegen.

I love Sosabowski's character, personally.

	19-02-2003 09:31									#19
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yeah that was a good movie. BTW who did Connery play in it?

	19-02-2003 10:01									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Urquhart. And Hopkins was Frost. Dirk Bogarde was General Browning, Gene Hackman played Sosabowski. Michael Caine was the wretched peasant in command of XXX Corps in the field.

	19-02-2003 11:03									#21
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****ing Monty...

	19-02-2003 13:37									#22
	answers ... Support Apolyton

(1)

quote: Jim, I did a small experimental Market-garden scenario a few years ago. It was a half-scale conceptual model for testing my bridge capture/demolition system. More recently, I've been collecting detailed OOB info. Since you're ready to go, I'd be happy to share the material with you if you'd be interested.

this is fantastic. i will call upon thee .... thanks in advance

(2)

quote: Great subject jim. Just to be pedantic, you got a couple of the British Divisional shields wrong. Yhe 43rd Wessex division symbol was a gold wyvern on a blue ground, and the 50th Northumbrian Division had 2 red 'T's on a black ground:

thanks for correcting this, gareth. i found my divisional signs on various pages on the net.

(3)

quote: Sorry to say this Stephan, but the American MG looks crap.

this shall be some airborne Vickers MG, not an america. due to the unit limitation it´s not possible to create a MG for each para division.

(4)

quote: BTW how many projects are you working on?

this one, since 3 months , sewastopole, the cold war crisis and the ottoman empire. last week i saw "a bridge too far" again and thought to go on with this one ..... sorry the iraq thing i postponed after mr bush´s stupid war (yes, i don´t believe any longer in some peaceful solutions including the US, another sorry ...)

btw, i think the britishámerican differences came out very well (eg "... and say please...")

	19-02-2003 17:30									#23
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I think Edward Fox played XXX corps commander Brian Horrocks. Michael Caine played the Irish Guards commander JOE Vandeleur.

Last edited by fairline on 19-02-2003 at 17:49

	19-02-2003 17:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda ****ing Monty...

hey, what was wrong with Monty - he won the war practically single handed

He defeated Rommel before the Yanks finally turned up for the war, his brilliant strategy destroyed the Nazis in Normandy and he helped the Yanks out of the mess they got themselves into in the Ardennes

Seriously, Market-Garden was a bold plan which, if it had worked, would have got the British across the Rhine 5 or 6 months earlier then they did. What ****ed it all up was the unknown presence of 2 SS panzer divisions at Arnhem, which were re-equiping after heavy losses in a supposedly peaceful area. That and the fact that the 1st Airborne was dropped way too far from Arnhem.

BTW Jim, I see you have got the divisional shield of 2 SS Pz div - this unit wasn't present at Arnhem - the two SS Divisions were 9SS and 10SS

	19-02-2003 18:32									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

(1) let me thank you for the shields of the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division.

(2)

quote: BTW Jim, I see you have got the divisional shield of 2 SS Pz div - this unit wasn't present at Arnhem - the two SS Divisions were 9SS and 10SS

I´ve got 2 different types of information:

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps commanded by SS Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich consisted of the 2nd SS Panzerdivision "Das Reich" and the 955th Panzer Division. (btw, this one I doubt even more after you mentioned the 9th and 10th SS Panzerdivision)

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the the 9th SS Panzerdivision "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" (I attached the divisional signs below, on the left the 9th, on the right the 10th)

	19-02-2003 18:53									#26
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse (1) let me thank you for the shields of the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division. (2) I´ve got 2 different types of information: - The 2nd SS Panzerkorps commanded by SS Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich consisted of the 2nd SS Panzerdivision "Das Reich" and the 955th Panzer Division. (btw, this one I doubt even more after you mentioned the 9th and 10th SS Panzerdivision) - The 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the the 9th SS Panzerdivision "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" (I attached the divisional signs below, on the left the 9th, on the right the 10th)

Is it serious ? 955th Pz Div, as if they were near 1000 of'em ?

2.SS PzKorps at MG time was indeed composed of 9th and 10th SS PzDiv - both of them very depleted and were resting near Arnhem. 9th had NO tanks, and 10th only had maybe 2 Coys worth of tanks !

I have very detailed OOBs of the battle, straight out of BFC game "Airborne Assault" if you need

	19-02-2003 19:10									#27
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Ok, the 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. I´m making some additional research about their orders of battle. At http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/index.htm i found this about the 9th SS Panzerdivision:

- Manpower strength
Dec 1943 19.611
June 1944 15.898
Dec 1944 19.000

- Order of battle
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 19
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 20
SS-Panzer Regiment 9
SS-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 9
SS-Panzer-Aufklarung-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 9
SS-Flak-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzer-Pioneer-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 9
SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 9
SS-Beoachtungs-Batterie 9
SS-Nachschubtruppen 9
SS-Panzer-Instandsetzungs-Abteilung 9
SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion 9
SS-Verwaltungstruppen-Abteilung 9
SS-Sanitäts-Kompanien 9
SS-Feldlazarett
SS-Krankenkraftwagenzug 9
SS-Feldpostamt 9
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 9
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 9
SS-Feldersatz-Battalion 9
SS-Ausbildungs-Battalion 9

and this about the 10th Panzerdivision:

- Manpower strength
Dec 1943 19.313
June 1944 13.552
Dec 1944 15.542

- Order of battle
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 21
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 22
SS-Panzer Regiment 10
SS-Panzer Artielleie Regiment 10
SS-Kradschutzen-Regiment 10
SS Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 10
SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 10
SS Flak-Abteilung 10
SS Pioneer-Abteilung 10
SS Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 10
SS-Verwaltungs Truppen 10
SS-Instandsetzungs Abteilung 10
SS-Sanitats Abteilung 10
SS-Nachschub Truppen 10
SS-Feldpostamt 10
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 10
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 10

Especially the manpower statisitc is interesting.

quote: 2.SS PzKorps at MG time was indeed composed of 9th and 10th SS PzDiv - both of them very depleted and were resting near Arnhem. 9th had NO tanks, and 10th only had maybe 2 Coys worth of tanks !

I think that a very depleted and exhausted Panzerkorps would not have been able to crush the allies in Arnhem (if the whole 1st Parachute Division has been there .....)

The manpower indicates that these divisions should rest but they were far from being shadows of themselves.

quote: I have very detailed OOBs of the battle, straight out of BFC game "Airborne Assault" if you need

Yes, if you are so kind t send me these OOBs. Send it to steph_sander@hotmail.com, please. Thanks in advance

	19-02-2003 19:32									#28
	Remove this text

Not to nitpick about it, but the fact was that the SS divs lost most of their heavy equipment during the retreat from France Q3 1944.
They however were still highly motivated, 10th SS had mucho arty, and the few armor they had was still more than the 0 armor figure of an Airborne Div...
Additionally they were not alone, German Army had many smaller units in the vicinity, and reinfs were also send in quite fast - amongst them some Hv Pz battalion with Tigers (those were independent and not attached to a div).
I'll try to compile a useful OB for you, but what level do you want ? Man/machines count, company or battalion level ?

	19-02-2003 19:51									#29
	ok, time for some decisions ... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I realised that I would need many more unit slots but the civ2 engine has its limits. So I decided to ask you what do you think about having these multiunit gfx representing the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division. Commentz, please ...

Attachment: 43rd + 50th division.gif
This has been downloaded 249 time(s).

	19-02-2003 19:52									#30
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I think battalion level would be fine ...