07-03-2003 15:39									#91
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Jim, I've read in numerous sources that the British withdrew most of their AA Crusaders after the break-out from Normandy. As the Luftwaffe had long ceased to exhist it was judged that all the Crusaders were achieving were the waste of desperatly needed tank crews. See http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkenn...ed_regiment.htm for details

quote: Originally posted by fairline Seriously, Market-Garden was a bold plan which, if it had worked, would have got the British across the Rhine 5 or 6 months earlier then they did. What ****ed it all up was the unknown presence of 2 SS panzer divisions at Arnhem, which were re-equiping after heavy losses in a supposedly peaceful area.

British intelligence had picked up the presence of German armoured units in the Arhnem area a few days before the operation was to be launched. However, Monty and his planners seem to have chosen to deliberatly ignore these German units and let the operation continue as planned. Bad call.

But point taken on Monty deserving some credit for trying such a bold operation. General MacArthur is regularly praised for his attack on Inchon, yet it was every bit as bold as Market-Garden. The key difference was that MacArthur got lucky while Monty didn't.

	07-03-2003 16:25									#92
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Thanks for this info Case.

Now that I´ve almost finished with the map (only Drop Zones and Swamps will be placed, except for the in-game placements like irrigation, etc) I also upgraded the terrain1.gif.

Attachment: terrain1.gif
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	07-03-2003 18:16									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Case Jim, I've read in numerous sources that the British withdrew most of their AA Crusaders after the break-out from Normandy.

your right Case. I read a book on 7th Armoured's campaign in NW Europe which stated that AA tank crews were used to replace heavy losses incurred at Villers Bocage - long before the Normandy breakout. I think by August all three Armoured Divisions had disbanded the AA troops attached to Armoured Regiments. They did however retain the Divisional Light AA Regiments, which used Bofors AA guns mounted on trucks rather than AA Crusaders.

quote: British intelligence had picked up the presence of German armoured units in the Arhnem area a few days before the operation was to be launched. However, Monty and his planners seem to have chosen to deliberatly ignore these German units and let the operation continue as planned. Bad call.

The major who had spotted armoured units in aerial photos of Arnhem was sent on leave for stress to get him out of the way - Gen. Browning was aware of them but I don't think the intelligence was passed up to Army Group level (ie Montgomery wasn't informed). I think Browning was overly keen to get his men into action after several paratroop operations had been aborted at the last minute.

This info comes from an excellent book on the battle by Cornellius Ryan which was used as the basis for the film, also called 'A Bridge too Far'.

	08-03-2003 22:03									#94
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A question: As the main force facing the Allied Airborne Assault on the bridges the German army was called "1. Fallschirm Armee" (1st Paratroop Army). Does anyone know how many of these elite warriors (the German Fallschrimjäger) saw combat in these days?

p.s.: OOBs I´ve got, I´d need some numbers because I want to know if I should include an infantry unit representing these Fallschirmjäger.

	09-03-2003 03:17									#95
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Looking for other stuff, I came across this about the 1st Para army from an ancient S&T magazine article:

quote: FJ training bns: 4 inf bns. Part of the last recruitment drives in Germany. 6th FJ Rgt: 2 inf bns. Two out of three bns of a crack regiment; committed late in the operation 2nd FJ Rgt: 1 inf bn. A 'rotten apple' unit which was commited alonside the 6th FJ rgt and performed poorly.

Does this fit with your current OOB info? Is it what you're after? I can dig up more similar stuff about the other units if it helps.

	09-03-2003 05:34									#96
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse A question: As the main force facing the Allied Airborne Assault on the bridges the German army was called "1. Fallschirm Armee" (1st Paratroop Army). Does anyone know how many of these elite warriors (the German Fallschrimjäger) saw combat in these days? p.s.: OOBs I´ve got, I´d need some numbers because I want to know if I should include an infantry unit representing these Fallschirmjäger.

As Boco points out, the number of paratroopers in the '1st Paratroop Army' was actually rather small - the title was more of an honorific and a sop to it's commander Karl Student then any indication of the unit's actual composition [kind of like the scary sounding, but rather ordinary Soviet 'Guards Tank Armies' which faced NATO]. From memory, the '1st Paratroop Army' had more units made up of conscripted and sick old men (the imfamous 'stomach' and 'foot' regiments) then actual paras.

In addition, bear in mind that almost all of the 'paratroopers' in the German para regiments had never seen a German transport plane, let alone jumped out of one. These regiments were really 'just' elite infantry.
However, as German Paras were present in significant numbers and played an important role in the battle [I think that they mainly fought the Allied airborne division in the middle of the corridor (the 82nd?)], I believe that they should be represented by a seperate unit.

BTW, how are you handling resupply in this scenario? I considered making a Market-Garden scenario a while ago, and it struck me that the Second Front logisitics system would be idealy suited - it will force the Allied paras to hold on to the (hard to defend) drop zones until the land column links up with them.

	09-03-2003 18:05									#97
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Thanks for your help Boco, now I´m sure I will include some Fallschirmjäger units. I´ll have to leave a unit out but I know which one ...

That´s the Order of Battle I´ve got of the 1st Paratroop Army.

21. Fallschirmjäger Panzer Regiment
Staff
Panzer Maintenance Company
1. Panzer Battalion
Staff
Panzer Supply Column
1. Panzer Company
2. Panzer Company
3. Panzer Company
4. Panzer Company
2. Panzer Battalion
Staff
Panzer Supply Column
5. Panzer Company
6. Panzer Company
7. Panzer Company
8. Panzer Company
21. Fallschirmjäger Pioneer Regiment
Staff
Fallschirmjäger Radio Platoon (mot)
3 x Battalion (mot)
Fallschirmjäger Radio Platoon
4 x Fallschirmjäger Pioneer Company
Pioneer Light Supply Column (mot)
21. Fallschirmjäger Signals Reigment
3 x Battalion
3 x Company
Light Supply Column (mot)
Air Liaison Signals Detachment
Fallschirmjäger Lehr Battalion (mot)
Staff
Fallschirmjäger Radio Platoon (mot)
3 x Company (mot)
Machine Gun Company (mot)
21. Heavy Nebelwerfer Battalion
Staff
4 x Battery
21. Fallschirmjäger Bicycle Battalion
3 x Company
2 x Motorcycle Company

21. Military Police Battalion
3 x Company
21. Fallschirmjäger Supply Battalion
4 x Company (mot)
21. Transport Battalion
4 x Company
Administration & Medical Troops

I´m going again after the units and then I´ll post them, ok?

quote: In addition, bear in mind that almost all of the 'paratroopers' in the German para regiments had never seen a German transport plane, let alone jumped out of one. These regiments were really 'just' elite infantry.

Stupid question: What about the Westfeldzug in 1940 ("Fortress Holland") or Crete?

	09-03-2003 18:09									#98
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quote: BTW, how are you handling resupply in this scenario? I considered making a Market-Garden scenario a while ago, and it struck me that the Second Front logisitics system would be idealy suited - it will force the Allied paras to hold on to the (hard to defend) drop zones until the land column links up with them.

There will be some Drop Zones included in the Terrain1.gif. Those zones will be the points were possible reinforcements - for achieving mission goals - will be "dropped". Does anyone have an idea how to make these squares more "interesting" for the AI (my idea was to build fortresses on these squares)?

	09-03-2003 18:48									#99
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BTW, does anyone else know what kind of uniform the paratroopers of Germany wore? I found a deep blue uniform (pic below).

Thanks in advance

Attachment: fallschirmjäger.jpg
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	09-03-2003 19:00									#100
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quote: Stupid question: What about the Westfeldzug in 1940 ("Fortress Holland") or Crete?

As the Dutch and Kiwis will attest, it's not so stupid. There was even a shelved plan to drop on Malta. By 1944, however, many of those soldiers were long gone. Their replacements lacked jump training. Many FJ units didn't even pretend to have jump capability (e.g. those training battalions and the HG division). It's possible that the 6th FJ could still jump, IF they still had chutes, transports, etc.

Are you aiming for a sub-battalion scale? If so, the question of ranged units that someone mentioned earlier is pretty important. Weren't the Brits in particular hammered by German arty? What's your approach (sorry if I missed a previous answer)?

	09-03-2003 19:25									#101
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First of all: some Fallschirmjäger unit. I first made the one on the lef with the blue uniforms but after looking at it from greater distance I found them look .... hm ... not appropriate. I guess appropriate is the right word.

I think I´ll take the one on the right to represent the Fallschirmjäger.

quote: Are you aiming for a sub-battalion scale? If so, the question of ranged units that someone mentioned earlier is pretty important. Weren't the Brits in particular hammered by German arty? What's your approach (sorry if I missed a previous answer)?

Good question. Very good question ideed. I´ll try to answer. Well, as far as I know the German artillery slowed the advance of the XXX Corps down in the beginning of the operation. After getting through the front lines the dutch civilians proved to be also as some kind of roadblock .... I´m also not quite sure about creating some Artillery Shell unit. What do you think? (... Artillery discussion)
Hm, there are still one thing left to debate: what unit scale to take? At the moment I´m not quite sure whether going into it with units representing Companies or Battalions.

	09-03-2003 19:26									#102
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sorry, I named right and left wrong.

	09-03-2003 19:29									#103
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And as promised: the Units.gif file. Any kind of comments are welcome.

Attachment: units.gif
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	10-03-2003 05:21									#104
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse That´s the Order of Battle I´ve got of the 1st Paratroop Army....

Um, that's actually a table of organisation and equipment [TO&E to us geeky wargamers]

An oob lists the units involved in a battle, not the specific make up of the units.

quote: Stupid question: What about the Westfeldzug in 1940 ("Fortress Holland") or Crete?

After the high casualties the German paras incurred at Crete, the German high command (read: Hitler) made a decision not to attempt further large-scale airborne operations. While the Germans had numberous genunine para trained units untill fairly late in the war, they never made another large scale drop after Crete [the possible exception being the airlift into Algeria and Tunisia in 1942/43]. As the paras were generally given difficult tasks, their casualties were high, and the genouinly trained paras had by and large died out by late 44.

The last German airborne operation was made by a battalions worth of Paras on the opening day of the Battle of the Bulge. Such a small force was used because it was the largest parachute trained force the Germans could find and fit onto the available aircraft! [some sources say that the paras didn't actually end up dropping due to poor weather]

quote: And as promised: the Units.gif file. Any kind of comments are welcome.

Wow, those infantry units look great!

You could probably free up some unit slots by getting rid of the German aircraft, especially the bombers. While German fighters did significantly harras the Allies drops after the start of Market-Garden, the German bomber force was next to non-existant by this stage of the war.

BTW, what's the story behind the Jewish solider? Did the British Jewish Brigade (legion? regiment?) fight during Market-Garden, or is this a Dutch resistance unit?

	10-03-2003 05:49									#105
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Looking good, Jim!

Can't wait to try this one out!

	10-03-2003 14:01									#106
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Couple of problems with your units:

You've put a muzzle brake on the end of 75mm gun on the Sherman V - they didnt have em.

Your German paras are dressed in blue?? They had a blue jacket, but the trousers should be field grey and they would wear cammo smocks over the blue jacket.

Paras didn't have universal carriers. There were jeeps that towed thier artillery and were used by the recce squadron, but not tracked armoured vehicles (the Locust wasn't used either at Arnhem).

Last edited by fairline on 10-03-2003 at 14:06

	10-03-2003 15:45									#107
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Guys, since we are looking at details here, please note that the Canadian shield you show did not come into wide use until the 1950's.

Please feel free to use this one, which is accurate for the period, as I have been told by an expert opinion.

The other shields (especially the US divisional ones) are awesome, BTW.

Attachment: canada1.gif
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	10-03-2003 17:58									#108
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Thanks for your advice, Curt.

Also the muzzle brake of the Sherman will be removed, like the German Bombers. I´m playing around with the thought of including some Dutch Resistance Fighters as well ....

	10-03-2003 18:14									#109
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Just to give you an impression what to expect and to give you something you can admire while waiting. Currently I´m placing the last cities on the map and I´m also doing some minor map updates.

Attachment: screenshot1.jpg
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	11-03-2003 10:55									#110
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*drools*

	11-03-2003 14:53									#111
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Where's the RAIL bridge ??
Will bridges be blowable ? We NEED it, can a "terraforming" by Engineers do the trick ? The engineers will end up in water...

	11-03-2003 15:41									#112
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Would helicopter engineers work?? Kind of wierd but I think it was in the Underdark scenario?

	11-03-2003 15:48									#113
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quote: Originally posted by PDifolco Where's the RAIL bridge ?? Will bridges be blowable ? We NEED it, can a "terraforming" by Engineers do the trick ? The engineers will end up in water...

Actually the engineers do not sink.

Instead they "float" in sleep mode and can move to any adjacent land square.

	11-03-2003 15:58									#114
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Actually the rail bridge is the one right of Oosterbeek-Laag. I´m currently thinking about how to include railways but I don´t want nobody to use ´em ...

Any ideas?

	11-03-2003 17:54									#115
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It looks like you've got a land-bridge between
Oosterbeek and 'The Island' - surely thats not right. Also, I think your road graphics look a little strange - you should maybe lose the black outline, or at least lighten it.

Do you have a 'poulder' terrain? (apologies to any Dutch out there if this is miss-spelt) This should reduce movement to a minimum on the Island to keep XXX Corps on the causeway and allow for easier German defence.

	12-03-2003 09:16									#116
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Guys, since we are looking at details here, please note that the Canadian shield you show did not come into wide use until the 1950's. Please feel free to use this one, which is accurate for the period, as I have been told by an expert opinion. The other shields (especially the US divisional ones) are awesome, BTW.

Curt, the Maple leaf flag was put into use in 1957 as you said. However, this was the Canadian flag prior, actually from 1922-1957:



I found this here, listed as such:
Old Canadian Army Badge
The sprig of maple leaves is red; the swords gold; and the Crown is coloured as in the usual British/Commonwealth heraldric manner. Although Cdn Brigadiers continued to wear the Royal Crest as a cap badge right up until the unification of the 3 separate services, (ie., 1968), it is my understanding that the Canadian Army badge was "Canadianised" (ie., altered to that shown in the gif), as long ago as the late-1940s. As I think is obvious, the Cdn badge remains true to its origins, while nevertheless asserting a distinctive Canadian identity: the secret of a successful heraldic (re-?)design.



They dont list the old flag, but they do have the newer one adopted in 1998. Perhaps the older one was simmilar only with the different crest.




I couldnt find anything with a green field and yellow leaf?

Flags of the World

-FMK.

	12-03-2003 09:30									#117
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crap, I just made a canadian shield. Looked good too. PSP crashed before i was finished.

-FMK.

	12-03-2003 09:34									#118
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse And as promised: the Units.gif file. Any kind of comments are welcome.

Just wondering if you are having units buildable in the scenario? Perhaps since it is a war scenario you are limiting or cutting out all together unit building. If so, I think you might have to switch the position of your bridge unit. If no units are buildable in the rules file, newly conqured cities will have the first unit in the units.gif as their item in the production que. If units are buildable, then forget everything I said.

-FMK.

	12-03-2003 15:11									#119
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I think I´ll use my university holi-day today to move market garden nearer completion.

No, this scenario covers only a few days in September 1944 and therefore you will not be able to build any unit (as the human=allied player). The German side will be able to build only non-moveable units.

You may get some reinforcements or capturing some key positions (eg like some additional paras for capturing Arnhem or something like this).

@Bridges: Do you have any ideas how to manage this? Now - as you know - I placed a bridge unit on a land square which will be changed into water by events once the bridge unit was destroyed.
This should work like this: If the Allies manage to advance to a bridge, they shall attack the unit. A text popping up will be telling you something about the bridge and a bridge unit belonging to the Allies will be created.

That´s how I imagined it. The main problem I´m facing is: How on earth can I make this not only some kind of realistic but also in a way that the XXX Corps troops may avance further ...?

	12-03-2003 15:26									#120
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse @Bridges: Do you have any ideas how to manage this? Now - as you know - I placed a bridge unit on a land square which will be changed into water by events once the bridge unit was destroyed. This should work like this: If the Allies manage to advance to a bridge, they shall attack the unit. A text popping up will be telling you something about the bridge and a bridge unit belonging to the Allies will be created

Here's three ideas:

1) Allocate ownership of the Bridges to a totally seperate 'Bridge' Civilisation. At the start of the game, set the civ to be at peace with the Germans and at war with the Allies. Then a couple of days into the scenario, use an event to set the Germans to be at war with the Bridge Civ. The Germans will now attack and 'blow' the bridges! You can tie this into a change terrain event to create ocean rivers.

2) If the Allies beat the clock and reach the Bridge before it gets blown (eg, as happened at Njemian [sp?]) then let the allies attack and kill the Bridge, and use a destroyed unit triggered create unit event to give the allies a new Allied owned Bridge on the Bridge square

3) You could give the allies the ability to build an Amphibious 'DUKW' transport in river side cities they capture. This will allow the allies to make crossings in squares where the Germans have blown the Bridges.