19-02-2003 08:41									#31
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Bush's plan seems emminently reasonable to me. Most economic activity resides with the state in Iraq and that must not be destroyed. Over the long-run, we'll work out the redistribution of power in a more democratic fashion and then the division of money.

	19-02-2003 08:43									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe the PKK can stage a massive uprising when the war begins.

Maybe, maybe not.

We screwed up (actually got our ass kicked by CIA and Mossad) in trying to rescue their leader.

But that in fact worked in PKK's favor. Made them more determined

Their bases have been relocated in a location close to Turkey (will try to find the link).

Perhaps they could do it but I don't think so.
Of course we'll help as much as it doesn't hurt us.

	19-02-2003 08:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe the PKK can stage a massive uprising when the war begins.

Well a good part of the Turkish army will be there to crush it if it does.

	19-02-2003 08:48									#34
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Paiktis: Actually, I think there are parrallels. Not perfect, but Iraq is a functioning state that has it's **** together more than many others.

	19-02-2003 08:53									#35
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You don't want to rebuild. You want to suck dry, you know it. Same in Afganistan. That's why Euros don't trust Bush. He hasn't got staying power and can't deal with real issues.

BTW Che, what do you know

quote: ISTANBUL, Turkey - Turkey's Kurdish rebels on Wednesday urged Kurdish youths to join the guerrillas and said war against Turkey had become inevitable, in a statement carried by a Kurdish news agency. The announcement marks an important change of position by the rebels, who had declared a unilateral cease-fire in 1999. The rebels said they "understood that the four-year-old peace process has been choked and that war has become inevitable." The statement also accused Turkey of preparing to occupy northern Iraq to "suppress Kurdish freedom" there.

Can't find the place they relocated though. It was in Ruters, Turkey was urging that country to stop helping them.

Kurds have to fight off the US, Turkey and Iraq. Holy ****. That's ok though. We've done something similar. It's not impossible. But I simply don't think the time for their freedom has come yet.

	19-02-2003 08:57									#36
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You don't want to rebuild.

By and large, the Iraqis have the capability and money to do this themselves.

	19-02-2003 08:57									#37
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The odds are crushing against them but it would help a little bit if they weren't so divided too.

	19-02-2003 08:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You don't want to rebuild. By and large, the Iraqis have the capability and money to do this themselves.

What few pennys of oil dollars you might feel charitable enough to leave them?
Not likely.

Besides you don't kill 500.000 people. Period. Actually you can, try it and may God Blesse America if it does

	19-02-2003 09:07									#39
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In 1999 they were apparently in Iran

quote: Iran accused Turkey on Friday of trying to send troops into its territories and said Iranian forces drove them back. The Turkish soldiers attempted to attack the northwestern border region of Qottur on Thursday, but were pushed back by Iranian forces, the Farsi-language service of the Islamic Republic News Agency quoted an unidentified foreign ministry official as saying.

- Jul 23 1999

quote: Iran accuses Turkish jets of bombing its territory, killing 5 Turkish warplanes attacked targets in northwestern Iran on Sunday, killing five people and wounding 10 others, Iranian media reported. According to the reports, the attack took place in West Azerbaijan province, which borders southeastern Turkey, where Kurdish rebels have been active.

If someone can find a map east and south of Turkey I can probably remember and pinpoint the country PKK uses as a basse now. (according to turkish declarations of course)

	19-02-2003 09:08									#40
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If the Kurds try to form an independent state/cause too much trouble, Turkish forces will enter the area and restore order.

	19-02-2003 09:08									#41
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BTW Turkey can pull off a lot of **** with US backing huh?

	19-02-2003 09:09									#42
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I'm wondering why the Kurds think we'll just roll in and then roll out when Saddam is gone. We're not naieve enough think that there won't be widespread score-settling and chaos if we left the Iraqi opposition to its own devices.

Besides, who decides who gets the power? Is it the Kurds? The Shiites in the south? Sunni reps in the central areas? Are we going to let Islamicist parties into the election process?

These are all questions that we need to sort out. Passing off the reigns of power to disparate Kurdish groups is not a good idea. I'm also skeptical of the Expats who are waiting in the wings in the U.S. in Europe. Who says that they are the legitimate government of Iraq?

	19-02-2003 09:10									#43
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I believe the Turks may be about to shoot themselves in the foot. They have asked for guarantees about the Kurds from Bush in exchange for using their territory for the invasion of northern Iraq. However, they also want a lot of money from United States, far more than we're willing to give them. This may force Bush to revise his plans regarding the Kurds because we may need their help to stage operation from their territory if we cannot go through Turkey.

In other words, if Turkey doesn't play poker almost immediately, the Turks may end up in major losers in this because they will get neither our money nor the suppression of the Kurds for which they have been bargaining.

	19-02-2003 09:11									#44
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Well my guess is that the Iraqi Kurds won't be too happy to relinquish their new found freedom there.
In Turkey they are massacred with US backing. In Iraq they are almost free with US backing.
Cute.

Still PKK bases are in neither of these countries now.

	19-02-2003 09:13									#45
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Ned, yep by all accounts Turkey is in a tough spot right now. We'll see how it'll play out.

	19-02-2003 09:13									#46
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Pattycakes:

What's there in Afghanistan to "suck dry"?

	19-02-2003 09:15									#47
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The future oil pipes going through it.

But Afganistan was mentioned as an example of Bush's tendency to run when the going gets tough. That's a reason Euros don't think he's hard enough for Iraq either.

	19-02-2003 09:15									#48
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Color me suprised.

Why would Shrub possibly implement democracy in Iraq when it's in his interests to keep the state dictatorial?

	19-02-2003 09:16									#49
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Bullshit Paiktis.

US is there to rebuild.

Iraq had the highest standard of living and was the most advanced state in the Mideast until dumbass Saddam went after Iran, and then Kuwait.

	19-02-2003 09:18									#50
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LOl @ Ted.
US is there to suck the place dry (who cares if 500.000 die for it).

In Afganistan is bye bye USA already as far as Euros see it.
Bush has proven he ain't hard enough.

But that thread's about the Kurds...

	19-02-2003 09:21									#51
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And with much reservation and not being 100% sure I think the PKK bases are in Azerbaijan now

	19-02-2003 09:23									#52
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Jeez.

And so, Americans should simply enter, remove Iraq, set up polling stations, and leave?

The economy and society of Iraq would self-destruct in a week.

	19-02-2003 09:25									#53
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The Americans should not invade in the first place.

Iraq doesn't seem to be self destroying. Sadam can be removed by the people. Now that he deosn't have your support any more.
There are far more cruel regimes out there. Go remove them.
Start with Musharaf.

	19-02-2003 09:25									#54
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The Kurds in Northern Iraq seem to be doing just fine without Americans (or Iraqis) telling them what to do. Their economy and society haven't self-destructed in the past decade.

	19-02-2003 09:28									#55
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No peoples really self destruct. Other... forces destroy them.

	19-02-2003 09:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Kurds in Northern Iraq seem to be doing just fine without Americans (or Iraqis) telling them what to do.

However, no one wants an independent Kurdistan save for Iran.

	19-02-2003 09:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What exactly does that have to do with anything, UR?

I just found it amusing that you trust info coming from the CIA as gospel, which is quite strange considering the CIA would be the organisation most likely to be involved in campaigns of misinformation.

	19-02-2003 09:33									#58
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DD is like that. That's why you shouldn't really take him seriously.
Consider him like a talking doll. Pull the string and he'll talk

	19-02-2003 09:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That was just an excuse. The embassy was bombed deliberately.

Agreed. I just use its own excuse to show the CIA in an unreliable light

	19-02-2003 09:35									#60
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Anyway, my guess is Bush is planning try to implement the Germany/Japan model on Iraq, go for total victory, then phase in democracy.