20-02-2003 02:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What is wrong with what Turkey is doing? Nothing. Except they can't get too greedy. We've already moved from $3 billion -> $6 billion cash and $10 billion -> $20 billion loan guarantees.

Well it's ok for them to try to negotiate with them? Turkey is in a key strategic geogrpahical location and are one of our most important allies, it is very important we keep them as such. And keep in mind a large majority of the Turkish people oppose such a war, a huge compensation is warranted given the possible domestic political consequences.

	20-02-2003 02:34									#32
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A whooping 80% of Turkish people oppose the war.
Not even their police state can contain them and if economic hurdles continue, which they will with the war, that makes it bad for the present Islamist government.

Turkey is in a tight spot but has seen that it is able to extort the US and will do so because it is risking big in a war with Iraq.

	20-02-2003 02:48									#33
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Paiktis, why do the 80% of the Turk people oppose the war?

	20-02-2003 02:51									#34
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Ned:
_ because they consider Iraqis brothers (muslims)
_because they fear it will lead to further economic crisis
_because they are afraid of a free Kurdistan
_because some are pacifists
_because they don't want to have for a neighboor a country which they helped being invaded

The regime is mostly afraid about the 3rd one the people about the 2nd

	20-02-2003 02:55									#35
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I say we pump oil out of Iraq equal to the cost of the war.

Then just a wee bit more...

No really, what about paying for freeing the Iraqis with Iraqi oil?

	20-02-2003 03:01									#36
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Paiktis, thanks. BTW, it is interesting to even contemplate Turks being pacifists. My what a change from history.

As to Kurdistan, the more Turkey supports the war the more Turkey has a say on the issue of the Kurds. However, I for one am opposed in principle to cutting any deals with the Turks concerning the Kurds. This sounds to me a lot like Chamberlain and Hitler discussing Czechoslovakia at Munich.

As others have said here, I hope Turkey does not accept our offer. We can then deal with the Kurds fairly.

	20-02-2003 03:18									#37
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Iran moved troops into Iraq in the last couple of days. It is shaping up like a real mess.

	20-02-2003 03:33									#38
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This is a funny one...

Turkey actually asked for $92 billion.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...d=1045510927622

Last edited by DanS on 20-02-2003 at 04:24

	20-02-2003 04:24									#39
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DanS,

How is that amusing? I'm pissed.

	20-02-2003 04:29									#40
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Well, if you don't ask for it, you'll never get it.

FYI: $93 billion represents 2/3rd of a year of the entire Turkish economy.

	20-02-2003 04:36									#41
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Well, for 2/3 of our annual GDP I'd let you use Canadian bases for any attack against Iraq...

	20-02-2003 05:28									#42
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frogger,

Would that be like 50 bucks?

	20-02-2003 06:50									#43
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Apparently it's something like 94% of Turks against the War...

Also, why are the Kurds allowed to kill and torture the Kurds and the Iraqis are not - something of a double standard?

BTW if the northern front goes ahead, apparently the Turks plan to 'occupy' northern Iraq indefinitely...

	20-02-2003 06:59									#44
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The Turks are asking for an awful lot, it just comes down to who needs the other more I guess.

On the Kurds issue and the respective human rights issue, now you can see why the EU has refused even to start talks on admitting Turkey in for at least another year or two.

	20-02-2003 07:00									#45
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Why would the Turks want northern Iraq? Aren't they worried about having too many Kurds in Turkey?

Anyway, I really can't seeing either Turkey or Iran seriously pissing the US off. Although, asking for 93b does make them suspect.

	20-02-2003 07:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel The Turks are asking for an awful lot, it just comes down to who needs the other more I guess. On the Kurds issue and the respective human rights issue, now you can see why the EU has refused even to start talks on admitting Turkey in for at least another year or two.

The Turks aren't helping their case by showing themselves to be over chargers.

	20-02-2003 07:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The Turks aren't helping their case by showing themselves to be over chargers.

they certainly aren't, heh now the American govt. knows just like the EU govt how annoying the Turkish can be when they want something

	20-02-2003 07:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Why would the Turks want northern Iraq? Aren't they worried about having too many Kurds in Turkey?

Because the Kurds have, to all intents and purposes, set up an independent government there that the Turks want the opportunity to dismantle.

As far as I can tell, part of the US/Turkey deal is allowing them to do just that - oppress the Kurds AGAIN! Which kind of shows a callous disregard for Kurdish welfare when not in US interests...

I find it laughable that the US is demonising Saddam about his danger to other countries, when he is unable to fully control his own...

Plus there are the Northern Oilfields nearby.

quote: Anyway, I really can't seeing either Turkey or Iran seriously pissing the US off. Although, asking for 93b does make them suspect.

You quote an impossible fee, so that you have bargaining room to strike the deal you actually want - I still maintain that americans are crap at haggling...

	20-02-2003 07:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS You quote an impossible fee, so that you have bargaining room to strike the deal you actually want - I still maintain that americans are crap at haggling...

Thank you for telling us that we are suppose to haggle when we are charged 93 billion dollars for a widget.

	20-02-2003 07:30									#50
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"As others have said here, I hope Turkey does not accept our offer. We can then deal with the Kurds fairly."

That is a silly position. One key to succeding in the War on Terrorism is prevention of new islamist pro-Al Queda groups from forming. Why should we want to do undermine a secularist government that has been a loyal ally?

	20-02-2003 07:31									#51
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yes never pay more than 92.89bn dollars! daft Americans paying 93bn dollars for a widget!

	20-02-2003 07:37									#52
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It's nice to know that my tax money is being used as a bargaining chip to bribe someone into participating in something so horrible.

	20-02-2003 07:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Thank you for telling us that we are suppose to haggle when we are charged 93 billion dollars for a widget.

Well, if they'd started at 30 billion, I'm sure you'd got them down to 10 billion - hence the high starting price...

	20-02-2003 07:41									#54
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If my government pays 93b I will have to raise hell just so that MOBIUS will not go on about Americans causing the high price of widgets with their inability to haggle.

	20-02-2003 07:44									#55
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quote: Well, for 2/3 of our annual GDP I'd let you use Canadian bases for any attack against Iraq...

Us too, us too!

Eh, wait a sec, the US WILL be using our bases for an attack against Iraq! And we're supposed to be opposing them!

	20-02-2003 08:09									#56
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It might be better to not use Turkey anyway because in the long run it will pay off to keep Iraq as a whole.

	20-02-2003 08:16									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "As others have said here, I hope Turkey does not accept our offer. We can then deal with the Kurds fairly." That is a silly position. One key to succeding in the War on Terrorism is prevention of new islamist pro-Al Queda groups from forming. Why should we want to do undermine a secularist government that has been a loyal ally?

I am thinking that if the Kurds are not treated fairly but instead are given over to Turkey, they will react in somewhat the same manner as the Palestinians now do under Israeli occupation.

	20-02-2003 16:19									#58
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Part of what's going on is explainable by Turkish culture. As a friend of mine, and American who works in the corporate sector here, puts it: "In America, you know you've struck a good deal when all the participants walk away happy; in Turkey, you know you've struck a good deal when all the participants walk away equally pissed off."

But also, let's face it: Turkey is the only US ally that stands to get really screwed by a war in Iraq, just like last time. The combination of losing Iraq as a trading partner and having to cope with the flood of Kurdish refugees cost Turkey far, far more than it did any other member of the coalition; their economy still hasn't recovered. That's why so many Turks are against the war. And that's why, if I were Prime Minister Gul, I'd be asking for the moon, too.

	20-02-2003 16:28									#59
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US doesnt own the moon

	20-02-2003 16:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG US doesnt own the moon

Well, if someone tells Dubya there are terrorists with WoMD's on the moon I would expect an invasion force to be on its way pretty quickly.