19-02-2003 20:16									#1
	Our Allies- the TURKS Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Turkey Demands $32 Billion U.S. Aid Package if It Is to Take Part in a War on Iraq By DEXTER FILKINS with ERIC SCHMITT STANBUL, Feb. 18 — Turkish and American officials continued their diplomatic brinkmanship today, as the Turks said they were waiting for the Bush administration to answer their demand for an economic aid package worth as much as $32 billion to ensure their participation in a war with Iraq. The American ambassador to Turkey, Robert Pearson, was summoned to the Turkish Foreign Ministry after 10 p.m. on Monday and handed the proposal, which he forwarded to Washington, American officials said. The Turkish request is about $6 billion higher than what American officials said over the weekend was their final offer. Of the $26 billion Washington has offered, $20 billion is in loan guarantees and $6 billion in direct grants. Although a Western diplomat said the Turks were seeking about $10 billion in direct aid, the White House is adamant that $6 billion is the limit for direct aid. It remains to be seen whether negotiations will begin anew or whether the administration's plan to use Turkey as a launching pad for an invasion of northern Iraq will fall through. That prospect seemed to put an unusual strain on the relationship between the longtime allies, who have been speaking of each other in increasingly harsh tones. As of this evening, Turkish officials said they had received no answer from the Americans. As the day began in Washington, Ari Fleischer, President Bush's spokesman, called on the Turkish leaders to approve the deal that the Americans had offered. "We continue to work with Turkey as a friend, but it is decision time," Mr. Fleischer said. As Mr. Fleischer spoke, senior administration officials met at the White House to discuss the Turkish proposal, still hoping, at least in public, that Turkey would approve the smaller economic package. That seemed increasingly unlikely here, as the day passed without a vote by Parliament on the deployment of American combat troops. Turkish officials had scheduled one, but canceled it on Monday, saying they would go forward only after they reached an agreement on an economic aid package. There is a growing sense on both sides that time is running short. American military planners have drawn up two sets of war plans: one that includes Turkey as a staging area and one that does not. Two senior American military officials said today that without Turkish consent by the end of the week, the Pentagon would be forced to shift to a less desirable backup plan. "Two or three more days is about all that's left," said one of the senior officials. With ships carrying equipment for more than 15,000 soldiers of the Fourth Infantry Division now approaching Turkish ports, the military can wait only so long before planners need to divert the equipment to the Persian Gulf in time to unload it and have it ready for troops there by early March. Turkish leaders publicly warned that they might ultimately refuse to take part in an American operation against Iraq. In a speech that seemed intended for an American audience, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the leader of the majority Justice and Development Party, said Parliament's recent vote authorizing American engineers to upgrade Turkish military bases did not mean that the Turks would agree to open their bases to thousands of American troops. "Our American friends should not interpret this decision to mean that Turkey has embarked on an irreversible road," Mr. Erdogan said. "It is not possible for us to accept anything which we don't approve of, which we don't believe as necessary or which we can't explain to our people." Pentagon officials, seeking to put the best face on a bad situation, said that starting a northern offensive from Turkey, while desirable, was not essential to victory. But officials clearly want to move ahead, one way or another. Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, told a Turkish reporter last week that ships ferrying American soldiers were in the Mediterranean Sea and could not wait indefinitely for an agreement. "We can no longer keep our troops waiting on ships, wandering around the eastern Mediterranean," Mr. Wolfowitz said in the interview, printed in Hurriyet, a Turkish newspaper. Without a decision soon, he said, "it is highly likely that we would order our ships in the eastern Mediterranean to shift their direction to the gulf." The deadlock seemed to grow out of the belief, held by each country, that it holds the upper hand in the negotiations. Turkish leaders believe that the Americans, whatever they say privately, desperately need the country's participation in a war against Iraq. It is not just that a northern front would make an invasion easier, it is that Turkey is a Muslim country that is democratic and secular — precisely the kind of government the Bush administration hopes an invasion of Iraq might help bring about in other corners of the Middle East. At the same time, the Turkish public overwhelmingly opposes a war. For many here, the potential war with Iraq seems to promise a repeat of the Persian Gulf war of 1991, when Turkey was swamped with half a million refugees and its trade with Iraq plummeted. For their part, the Americans believe that Turkey cannot afford to turn them down, and that Turkey's leaders will ultimately understand that.

Remembering how indignant so many chickenhawks became about NATO and its aid to Turkey (NATO today approved of sending the equipment), Is Turkey now to be classified as evil like other allies?

Back in 1991, Bush I got our allies to pay for 50 billion of the cost of war. This time around, before the war begins, we have to pay at lest 26, if not 32 billion. What a difference a letter makes (From H.W. to W)

	19-02-2003 20:32									#2
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quote: Back in 1991, Bush I got our allies to pay for 50 billion of the cost of war.

one pays looking to get more back. it seems the allies have decided not to fall into the trap again....

	19-02-2003 20:42									#3
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Yeah... why pay when you know you don't have to

	19-02-2003 20:42									#4
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Except for Britain and Australia, the only allies the US has have been bribed.

	19-02-2003 20:42									#5
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This is just Turkey driving a hard bargain. Bush should hold the line on the offer, but I don't blame Turkey for trying to sweeten the deal.

	19-02-2003 20:42									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Remembering how indignant so many chickenhawks became about NATO and its aid to Turkey (NATO today approved of sending the equipment), Is Turkey now to be classified as evil like other allies?

Having friends like that, who needs enemies? I can't imagine DPRK being worse.

	19-02-2003 20:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Except for Britain and Australia, the only allies the US has have been bribed.

Bribed, are you mad- with what, to quote Tom Cruise.

Show me the money

	19-02-2003 20:55									#8
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quote: U.S. woos war allies with cash, weapons Iraq's neighbors swap staging sites for billions in aid By Stephen J. Hedges and Catherine Collins, Chicago Tribune. National correspondent Stephen J. Hedges reported from Washington and Catherine Collins from Istanbul February 2, 2003 WASHINGTON -- When U.S. and Turkish officials meet this week to discuss Turkey's potential role in any war with Iraq, they will also review an offer of U.S. aid. The multibillion dollar offer may look like so much diplomacy but is, in fact, a bid--the price the Bush administration is willing to pay for the use of Turkey's military bases, airfields and ports. The U.S. is offering more than $4 billion in loans and grants, according to a Western diplomat in Istanbul, which represents a "significant step forward" in the Bush administration's efforts to add a critical ally to its "coalition of the willing" against Iraq. "The United States has presented what we consider to be a credible offer," the diplomat said. "We have tried to design a package to give Turkey as much flexibility as possible." The package reveals Washington's eagerness to secure the use of Turkey as a vital land bridge into northern Iraq. It also illustrates the powerful economic and diplomatic levers that President Bush wields as he rallies allies against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Who's trading what In the Persian Gulf region alone over the past two years, the United States has sold, lent or given away an estimated $7.5 billion worth of weaponry, other military equipment and training assistance, according to State Department figures. Recipients have included such vital U.S. allies as Kuwait, Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. The deals include advanced fighter jets, radar systems and missiles. Airfields are being expanded. Military bases are being renovated. In return, the United States has won the right to build bases, house troops and use sovereign airspace if it wages a war against Iraq. Many of the same countries recently provided vital support, such as airfields, during the U.S. war against Al Qaeda and Taliban forces in Afghanistan. Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks against the United States, foreign military assistance--mostly grants to buy U.S. weaponry--has increased $500 million, to more than $4 billion for fiscal 2003, State Department documents show. Administration officials say the aid has been one of the most effective means of finding and sustaining foreign support for the global war on terrorism. "We provided money so they could . . . participate in doing what we were asking them to do," said an official involved in the program. "Security assistance . . . is a tool of U.S. national security and foreign policy." Analysts and critics, however, say the administration's use of arms as a diplomatic carrot has some potentially dangerous downsides, including a lack of control over the military hardware being provided. `A coalition of the bought off' The coalition of the willing, said security analyst Loren Thompson, "is really a coalition of the bought off." "If the Bush administration wants a coalition of the willing, it had better give them a reason to be willing," said Thompson, who directs the Lexington Institute, a public-policy think tank. "But when you have to buy people off to do it, you have to think about the risks." Others contend that the United States is busy arming nations that had been prohibited from receiving lethal U.S. weapons because of poor human-rights records and abusive militaries. Those countries include Yugoslavia, Uzbekistan and Indonesia. They also say the U.S. policy of trading arms for support may serve to fuel regional conflicts with a wave of modern and highly effective weaponry. "Who your friends are today may not be your friends tomorrow," said Rachel Stohl, a senior analyst with the Center for Defense Information in Washington. "Look at India and Pakistan. They're hot and cold as U.S. friends. Do we really want to be selling them our hottest weapons?" Stohl asked. India and Pakistan are nuclear-armed archenemies engaged in an ongoing, low-intensity conflict over the border region of Kashmir. The U.S. restricted military sales to both before Sept. 11, 2001. After the terrorist attacks in the United States, however, both have become vital American allies. And both have gotten increased U.S. military aid. Pakistan has received $1.2 billion in arms, including helicopters, radar systems, six used C-130 cargo aircraft, armored personnel carriers and F-16 fighter jets. The U.S. has given India $78million in air defense and artillery-spotting radar, Sea King helicopters and training aircraft. Cold War strategy revisited Swapping guns for favors is one of the oldest games in the diplomatic repertoire. It ran rampant during the Cold War, which for many nations not directly involved was not so much an ideological struggle as it was an opportunity to squeeze arms, financial aid and a convenient alliance out of the United States or the Soviet Union. "Everybody has a shopping list when we want to come in," said Milt Bearden, a former senior CIA official who directed the supply of U.S. Stinger missiles to Osama bin Laden and other Islamic rebels fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980s. "This is the reality of what's going on now, and it's time-honored. But I'm not sure I'm critical of it. You've got to do stuff," Bearden added. The war on terrorism, and the building standoff with Iraq, have reordered some of the deck chairs that were scattered when the Cold War ended. With the United States racing to find allies, countries again have been willing to go along--for a price. Potential allies, the administration official said, "are certainly looking to see what the benefits of a relationship with United States are going to be. As we approached countries in Central Asia, where we had no national security relationship before the war [on terrorism], it was one of the things that we did to make sure that we had a security relationship that wasn't just one-way." Nowhere have those relationships had greater ramification than in the Persian Gulf region, where for more than a decade the United States has been shipping arms and assistance. $1 billion in aid for Jordan Jordan's agreement last week to allow some U.S. forces on its soil points up just how effective the promise of such aid can be. In the 1991 Persian Gulf war with Iraq, then-King Hussein remained neutral; his county shared both a border and a brisk trade with Iraq. This time, however, King Abdullah II, the late monarch's son, apparently has thrown in with the Americans, and he has his reasons. For one, Abdullah's government must wrestle with the uncertainty of Saddam Hussein's presence and threats from Al Qaeda-linked cells in Jordan. For another, the Bush administration has promised to provide $1 billion in assistance to Jordan in exchange for overflight and troop-basing rights. Before that pledge, Jordan had received $223 million in U.S. military aid in the past two years, according to State Department figures. As the possibility of war against Iraq has neared, Turkey has remained a holdout. So far, Ankara has officially refused U.S. requests to use its bases and ports, but its reluctance may be part domestic politics, part bargaining chip. And the United States is sweetening the pot. Turkey has long been a recipient of U.S. military equipment and loans. It has an estimated $5 billion military loan debt with the United States, which might be negotiated away as part of a new aid package, and it has received $65 million in outright military grants from Washington since Sept. 11, 2001, when the terrorist hijackers struck. Also, Pentagon officials have said they are willing to spend up to $300 million to improve the facilities U.S. forces might use in Turkey. And a $324 million U.S. Export-Import Bank loan may be used to allow Turkey to buy 14 SH-60 Seahawk helicopters, according to the Pentagon. While Turkish leaders once were adamant against cooperation, they have in recent days softened their stance. The National Security Council said Friday that it would recommend to parliament approval of the limited use of bases by U.S. forces. Turkish law requires such a vote. Though nothing is certain, it increasingly appears that Turkey will agree to the U.S. requests once the aid package is hammered out. Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

Just in case you are doubting whether or not the US bribes people or not.

	19-02-2003 20:57									#9
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I'm doubting that they bribe the UK and Australia.

However having read your post again I realise you wern't saying that.

sorry I'm Stupid

	19-02-2003 20:57									#10
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quote: Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks against the United States, foreign military assistance--mostly grants to buy U.S. weaponry--has increased $500 million, to more than $4 billion for fiscal 2003, State Department documents show. Administration officials say the aid has been one of the most effective means of finding and sustaining foreign support for the global war on terrorism. "We provided money so they could . . . participate in doing what we were asking them to do," said an official involved in the program. "Security assistance . . . is a tool of U.S. national security and foreign policy." Analysts and critics, however, say the administration's use of arms as a diplomatic carrot has some potentially dangerous downsides, including a lack of control over the military hardware being provided. `A coalition of the bought off'

My favorite part.

	19-02-2003 20:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I'm doubting that they bribe the UK and Australia. However having read your post again I realise you wern't saying that. sorry I'm Stupid

heheh don't worry about it, whatever error you made pales in comparison to my own stupidity!

	19-02-2003 21:32									#12
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Hey, they should just be thankful we turn and look the other way when they go and bomb Kurd villages within Iraqi borders!

	19-02-2003 21:41									#13
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Nice business for all those people with interests in US defense companies.

	19-02-2003 22:12									#14
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This makes me very mad. Thirty-two billion is a lot of money, but I was already pissed off when I realized that the Turks will also demand that the Kurds get screwed. I hope Bush will reject their offer. Maybe the Kurds will get a better deal, and we can use the money in a more appropriate way.

	20-02-2003 00:13									#15
	Re: Our Allies- the TURKS Tired of ads?

quote: Back in 1991, Bush I got our allies to pay for 50 billion of the cost of war. This time around, before the war begins, we have to pay at lest 26, if not 32 billion

Back then we were saving their ass. Now we are just saving the world.

	20-02-2003 01:02									#16
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Screw the Turks! We can take the place from Kuwait alone. True, that will allow the concentration of Iraqi defences on that short border, but that just makes em easier to find.

We don't need the Turks...

	20-02-2003 01:10									#17
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The Turks do need the money, any money, so the admin. has a case for thinking that they can hold the line at 26 billion.

But the Turks are correct that if the US does not gets troops in Turkey, things wil be very messy in Iraq. It is not even a question of beating the Iraqi army, we can do that without northenr bases. But without them , our ability to get to the nrothern Oil fields in time (half of Iraq's oil comes from the nrothenr half) before they are perhaps blown is much lower, and then the Kurds might decide they shgould move on Kirkut and Mosul, and then the Truks themselves would invade Northenr Iraq to sop the Kurds. All of which would make the post war situation much worse.

Who will blink first? If someone doesn't, thing will only get more interesting.

quote: Back then we were saving their ass. Now we are just saving the world

Which? Bizzaro world?

	20-02-2003 01:14									#18
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So.. they wanted to join the EU and demanded things.. now they demand money from NATO? What's next? Demand money for their existance?

	20-02-2003 01:21									#19
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They are not asking money from NATO: they are demanding money from the US. Big difference. Given the few comments, perhaps we should declare Turkey a minor partner in the Axis of evil? Paitkis will be proud.

	20-02-2003 01:23									#20
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Turkish military regime is evil. Not the people. They are suffering too.

	20-02-2003 01:30									#21
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I say we hit em from Greece, drive the Ottomans outa europe! Then we restart the Byzantine empire and get them to help us in Iraq. Even the ****ing Greeks would support us.



Must think...

Constantinople

	20-02-2003 01:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Turkish military regime is evil. Not the people. They are suffering too.

The Turkish miltary regime is also what keeps secular
Turkey from becoming a Islamic Theocratic state. And
have done so since they banned the Fez.

	20-02-2003 01:30									#23
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GePap, what's the difference .

Paiktis, yep, I agree. It's not the people of Turkey we should all get racist at.

	20-02-2003 01:37									#24
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Little by little the grey world we live in is breaking through the Black and White fantasy world of the admin.

Why not go up the extra 6 billion? If we don't get northern bases, and the Kurds go for Kirkut, and the Turks decide to invade the North, I fail to see what the US could do to stop the Turkish army, and the Turks do have a big enough army to crush the Kurds. Hell, maybe the Iranians decide to join the party at that time as well.

The admin. really need sot make some major imporvements in its diplomacy. Colin Powell should have been sent is a huge Tour of the Eu and Turkey several weeks ago, to try to smooth things out. Instead, this admin. either ives you a phonecall, or they put you on their ignore list and even when they talk, all they do is set ultimatums and the such. That is not how diplomacy works.

	20-02-2003 01:49									#25
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GePap, lets see what they find in Iraq after the war.

	20-02-2003 01:58									#26
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How about airlifting forces into northen Iraq, you know, where the Kurds are self governing themselves?

I don't think that the Turks will attack the US.

	20-02-2003 02:11									#27
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What is wrong with what Turkey is doing? Supporting a US war on Iraq may have domestic political consequences, as well as severe economic strain. They are merely asking to be compensated for helping us out, which I think is fair. Turkey has been one of our loyal allies and I think it is fair we reward loyalty.

	20-02-2003 02:21									#28
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What is wrong with what Turkey is doing?

Nothing. Except they can't get too greedy. We've already moved from $3 billion -> $6 billion cash and $10 billion -> $20 billion loan guarantees.

	20-02-2003 02:28									#29
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What I object to is the Turk insistence on suppressing the Kurds. I really don't mind the money.

As to the oil fields in the North being blown, what we need is airborne or air mobile to take them. I suspect they may be out of range for the copters. However, I hardly believe that we cannot launch airborne from Kuwait that can reach the North.

However, if Saddam is successful in blowing up the oil fields in the North, I say, let the French clean up the mess. They are the ones that operate the oil fields, if I understand things correctly.

	20-02-2003 02:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How about airlifting forces into northen Iraq, you know, where the Kurds are self governing themselves? I don't think that the Turks will attack the US.

DOD says they have 3 different contingencies for having no northern bases. I would imagine that the 82nd airborne will probably spearhead this very idea along with the101st.

quote: What is wrong with what Turkey is doing? Supporting a US war on Iraq may have domestic political consequences, as well as severe economic strain. They are merely asking to be compensated for helping us out, which I think is fair. Turkey has been one of our loyal allies and I think it is fair we reward loyalty.

What is wrong is this: Loyal friends don't extort from their friends. (at least not this openly).
Turkey, as a NATO country and a SECULAR moslem country, could easily be a target for Iraq's WMD. Probably the only thing that has prevented it is the military might of their "evil military regime" in Turkey.

The Turks stand to gain security in two ways:

1.) Remove the threat of Iraqi WMD

2.) Have the US Military administer Iraqi "Kurdistan". Most of the problems they have with the Kurds come from the fact that they ARE a self governing entity on Turkey's border.

My conclusion is: Turkey, let us in or we support "no defense for you" measures at NATO and we turn the Kurds loose and form the State of Kurdistan. Betcha they would pay the US to have that not happen!! Friends don't extort friends before the world!!