21-02-2003 04:03									#91
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quote: To join the off-topic discussion in this off-topic thread

Does a double off-topic make an on-topic?

quote: Wasn't the moon claimed by a single guy, and it went all the way to the UN and was approved? Now he is selling Lunar real estate over the Internet. Could be quite interesting when your great grandchildren want to build a house on the land they inhereted from you.

Didn't know this. Could this possibly be true?? Could the UN be that stupid....(okay so that was a stupid question )

	21-02-2003 04:07									#92
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Didn't know this. Could this possibly be true?? Could the UN be that stupid....(okay so that was a stupid question )

I'm sure someone could help me with a link to his site.

	21-02-2003 04:08									#93
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quote: Exactly. The Russians don't have the money. I doubt the Euro's could agree on any part of that voyage. And...we'll see about the Chinese-my $$ say they won't(unless of course Bill Clinton sold them more missle tech than we already know of).

I doubt your government could agree to go back to the moon too.

Right now nobody has the capability to go.

And the next one who's likely to set foot there will be the Chinese. There might be a few ****-ups on the way, but I get the feeling they'll keep trying.

I don't usually like the Chinese, but on this for them.

Maybe it'll wake up the Euros and Americans.

	21-02-2003 04:11									#94
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quote: To join the off-topic discussion in this off-topic thread: Wasn't the moon claimed by a single guy, and it went all the way to the UN and was approved? Now he is selling Lunar real estate over the Internet. Could be quite interesting when your great grandchildren want to build a house on the land they inhereted from you.

Bunch a BS, AFAIK.

Nobody on Earth has the right to claim sovereignty over any celestial body. If and when this becomes something other than a non-issue it'll probably be a case of "the first to grab it and use it in a meaningful way gets to keep it". So being the first on the moon doesn't mean crap-all...but if you build a mine then the territory the mione's on will belong to you.

	21-02-2003 04:13									#95
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Yah, I thought the UN said the moon could be claimed by no man nor country.

The moon is open to everyone.... for now.

	21-02-2003 04:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: Exactly. The Russians don't have the money. I doubt the Euro's could agree on any part of that voyage. And...we'll see about the Chinese-my $$ say they won't(unless of course Bill Clinton sold them more missle tech than we already know of). I doubt your government could agree to go back to the moon too. Right now nobody has the capability to go. And the next one who's likely to set foot there will be the Chinese. There might be a few ****-ups on the way, but I get the feeling they'll keep trying. I don't usually like the Chinese, but on this for them. Maybe it'll wake up the Euros and Americans.

I can't help but agree. It is possible that the Americans will return. There had been some talk of it prior to the Shuttle Tragedy.

	21-02-2003 04:32									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: Exactly. The Russians don't have the money. I doubt the Euro's could agree on any part of that voyage. And...we'll see about the Chinese-my $$ say they won't(unless of course Bill Clinton sold them more missle tech than we already know of). I doubt your government could agree to go back to the moon too. Right now nobody has the capability to go. And the next one who's likely to set foot there will be the Chinese. There might be a few ****-ups on the way, but I get the feeling they'll keep trying. I don't usually like the Chinese, but on this for them. Maybe it'll wake up the Euros and Americans.

I doubt it. It's not like they got there first.

	21-02-2003 04:35									#98
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Send Saddam on the space shuttle!

	21-02-2003 08:39									#99
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If the Turks do not support us on Iraq, their reliability as an ally will become highly suspect. At a minimum, this will require a significant period of less than friendly relations between the United States and Turkey. If Turkey does not know this, they should.

Further, to the extent that we can acquire permanent bases in Iraq, and Iraq becomes an ally of United States, Turkey's importance as a strategic regional ally of United States will be substantially diminished.

This also means that the Turks will have little influence over post-war Iraq for two reasons: they will have a little influence over the United States and the successor Iraqi government will remember that the Turks failed, at a critical moment, to help in Iraq's liberation.

In the long-term, I believe that Kurdistan must be independent if they desire it and vote for it. It would be incomprehensible to me to have United States troops engaging combat against Kurdish troops seeking their independence. This would be morally unjustified. Were Bush to actually do this, I would think he would lose the support of even the Republican Party.

If we can support an independent Palestinian state, we should support an independent Kurdish state. If instead, we choose to suppress Kurdish national aspirations, American troops will be the target of suicide bombers from the Kurdish provinces. Why should we invite that nightmare?

	21-02-2003 11:12									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Further, to the extent that we can acquire permanent bases in Iraq, and Iraq becomes an ally of United States, Turkey's importance as a strategic regional ally of United States will be substantially diminished.

I'm glad you made this point. I would have but I forgot to get around to it. There is also Isreal to think of. If Iraq eventual becomes a strong ally of the US, Isreal would have much less power with the US. Although I have some doubts as to whether US and Iraq will become great allies. Japan comes to mind, but that was the Cold War and Japan needed the military and financial aid of the US to protect itself from the Soviets. Without a threat like that Iraq may never become such a great ally of the US.

	21-02-2003 13:43									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Further, to the extent that we can acquire permanent bases in Iraq, and Iraq becomes an ally of United States, Turkey's importance as a strategic regional ally of United States will be substantially diminished.

Highly doubtful, particularly in the light of W's lack of a post war plan for the country.

	21-02-2003 15:06									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Highly doubtful, particularly in the light of W's lack of a post war plan for the country.

Absolutely right. If anything, Turkey will become a more important regional ally; once W Afganistan-izes Iraq by sowing chaos and turning his back on the place, Turkey will play an important role in keeping all hell from breaking loose. I wouldn't want to be a Kurd when that happens, though.

So what's Turkey's problem? Well, among other things, they don't trust the US, and not without reason. One look at Afganistan and it's easy to get the impression that Bush's foriegn "policy" has no follow-through once the shooting stops; moreover, the Bush Administration has shown precious little interest in its allies once it stops needing something from them. On top of that, Turkey is still waiting for follow-through from the first Gulf War: back in '91, the US strong-armed the Arab emirates into promising Turkey $350 million worth of oil; 12 years later, that oil has yet to be delivered, and the US has yet to lean on their Arab "friends."

Seriously, would you trust Bush and the US under these circumstances? I know I wouldn't.

	21-02-2003 20:34									#103
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It looks like there will be a deal. Note the bit about disarming the Kurds. What does this mean?

What did we end up doing with the KLA? We said we would disarm them. Instead, we made them the government, IIRC.


"Feb 21, 10:17 AM (ET)

By HARMONIE TOROS

(AP) Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul talks to journalists after he arrived in Istanbul, Turkey,...
Full Image


ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Turkey's foreign minister said Friday there was broad agreement with the United States on the conditions for deploying U.S. troops in his country ahead of a possible war in Iraq.

Yasar Yakis did not say when he expected a deal to be reached, saying that depended on ongoing negotiations on some outstanding issues regarding the military, economic and political dimensions of the deployment.

"There is a very broad agreement on all subjects," Yakis said in an interview with CNN. "The remaining issues are not that many, but I think we will be able to overcome the differences and mutually agree."

Prime Minister Abdullah Gul said he expected a result in the coming days.


"It is certain that we understand their concerns and they understand ours in the best possible way and a result will be reached in the coming days," Gul told a meeting of businessmen in Istanbul.

Turkish and U.S. officials have been in intense negotiations for weeks on the conditions of the deployment. Washington wants to use Turkey to open a northern front for war with Iraq and has warned Ankara that time is running out.

U.S. Ambassador Robert Pearson said Friday after talks at the Foreign Ministry that the two sides were continuing to overcome obstacles.

One of the main sticking points has been the size of a U.S. aid package to compensate Turkey for losses incurred in a war, diplomats said, although military and political issues were also outstanding.

Yakis appeared confident that Turkey's parliament would ratify an agreement. If Turkey's "expectations are fulfilled, then of course it would increase the chances of the motion being approved," he said.


(AP) Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul smiles as he enters his car after he arrived in Istanbul,...
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However, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's leading politician, said he hopes lawmakers from his ruling party would approve the deployment but he would not order them to, an official with his Justice and Development Party said Friday on condition of anonymity.

That raised the possibility that a draft authorizing the deployment could be defeated in parliament. An overwhelming majority of Turks opposed to a war in Iraq, and deputies would have difficulty justifying their decision to back a U.S. deployment to their constituencies.

Washington has been pressing for Turkey to accept a quick agreement. Secretary of State Colin Powell said Thursday he was expecting an answer by Turkey by the end of the day - but the Turks said talks were continuing.

Turkey has demanded $10 billion in grants and $20 billion more in loans, while the United States is proposing a grant of around $6 billion.

Negotiators are discussing the possibility that some of the U.S. grant money could be converted in much larger loans, a Western diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Under the formula being discussed, each billion in grants that is converted would become $6 billion to $10 billion in loans, depending on the length of the loan and the amount of interest paid, the diplomat said.


(AP) U.S. military avengers which are used to carry stinger missiles are seen at Iskenderun port,...
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Washington is also insisting that the loans be linked to a stringent program of economic reform that is backed by the International Monetary Fund. Turkey wants the U.S. aid to be separate from the IMF loans and conditions.

Turks are also worried that war in Iraq will lead to the creation of an independent Kurdish state that would boost aspirations of Turkey's Kurds.

According to the daily newspaper Hurriyet, Turkey is insisting that Iraqi Kurdish groups controlling northern Iraq be disarmed after a war under Turkish supervision.

Toughening Turkey's stance, Erdogan insisted that any agreement had to be in writing and signed by the "highest authority," Anatolia said. The Western diplomat said Washington believed that once the substance of the agreement had been reached, the form would not be a problem.

The standoff comes as U.S. ships loaded with tanks and other equipment are off the Turkish coast, ready to bring in war equipment for the U.S. 4th Infantry Division.

Turkish lawmakers have already authorized the U.S. modernization of Turkish bases and ports."

	21-02-2003 20:43									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It looks like there will be a deal. Note the bit about Turks are also worried that war in Iraq will lead to the creation of an independent Kurdish state that would boost aspirations of Turkey's Kurds. According to the daily newspaper Hurriyet, Turkey is insisting that Iraqi Kurdish groups controlling northern Iraq be disarmed after a war under Turkish supervision.

Might as well just shoot the Kurds as hand them over to the Turks.

Turkish supervision presumably means prison camps run by the Turkish army.

	21-02-2003 21:46									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Highly doubtful, particularly in the light of W's lack of a post war plan for the country.

They want a centralized state, but they don't say who will take power. Certainly it wont be the Baathists, Kurds, or Shiites.

	21-02-2003 22:35									#106
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They can find a few strawmen if they dig deep in the desert. I bet they will set up some Democrat and Republican copycat parties to lead a two-party system under the supervision of uncle Sam. Hell, they could even keep the emblems: the elephant and the camel are Middle-Eastern enough to suit the Iraquis...

The Camel party and the Elephant party...

	22-02-2003 01:49									#107
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Axi, they don't have jackass's in Iraq?

	22-02-2003 01:58									#108
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Well, so the Truks get 26 billion,a nd the Kurds get screwed..hehehehe, except if you are a Kurd.

Turkey will remian a crucial US ally, not only due to its position in the ME, as Israel's only local friend (which gets them big props in Washington), but also because of the fact that the people's of Central Asia (the inhabitants of most of the -stan's) are Turkick speakers.

I also love the bit of demanding things in writing: that is how much belief there is on this admin.s monetary promises