20-02-2003 05:19									#31
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DuncanK:

How can I believe it? I see it everyday of my life... people don't give a damn no more... Of course, I'd say that there's plenty of people who still try but there's just as many who are content being high and rocking fancy clothes while living in shitholes.


thanks

	20-02-2003 05:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Chegitz: When you don't got food don't buy jordans...

That is something that plagues out whole society, not just the poor. People of all classes buy things all the time because they want it, even if it hurts them in some way.

	20-02-2003 05:20									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Chegitz: you did not counter anything I said... what is your solution to improve schools? Tossing more money at schools? How does that fix the attitude of students of not giving a damn?

I love how conservatives always call adequate spending, "tossing money at a problem." Guess what, the less money the schools have, the less able they are to deal with the problems they need to fix. Wonder why all the best schools are the ones with the best tax bases or the highest tuition? By your logic, there's no reason Harvard or Yale should cost so much. It's just throwing money at a problem.

quote: And it's not just weed... it's crack... it's heroine... it's everything. it's pre-marital sex... not giving a damn about the future... all these contribute to poverty. Notice how none of them got to do with economic oppurtunity.

Notice how you still can't write properly? You don't do drugs and you're still ignorant. You don't have premarital sex, and you still can't write proper English.

So, you seem to be saying, if people are poor, they shouldn't have any fun. They shouldn't be allowed to listen to music or watch tv, because it doesn't enhance economic opportunity. People should be able to hang out with their friends, it has nothing to do with economic opportunity. Why let poor people in parks or museums. Your argument makes no sense.

quote: And how does selfishness NOT enhance morality? Why do you not go a kill someone? 1) You will spend your life in prison 2) if you are a theist, you will go to hell... selfish reasons to not commit a moral crime.

The reason I don't kill has nothing to do with prison or eternal damnation. I don't kill because I don't want to kill. But let's talk about something a little more natural than murder, such as stealing. Fear of punishment doesn't stop crime. If you committ a crime, you don't do it thinking you're going to get caught. The theives in charge of Enron and Worldcom didn't think they were gonna get caught.

This system demands that you get ahead, that you use every weapon at your disposal to do so. That's why companies cheat on their taxes, dump pollution illegally. In fact, corporate crime is so rampant that if it were all punished, the system would come tumbling down. Far from promoting morality, this system promotes going against it. Lying, cheating, stealing, killing, all in the name of making a buck is perfectly legitimate . . . if you're rich.

	20-02-2003 05:21									#34
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Albert,

maybe they think the're going to live there anyways so they might as well enjoy it.

	20-02-2003 05:27									#35
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Chegitz:

quote: Wonder why all the best schools are the ones with the best tax bases or the highest tuition?

Go look up the best schools in the state of Pennsylvania and you will find Masterman HS and Central HS to be among the top and both are public schools in Philly

quote: By your logic, there's no reason Harvard or Yale should cost so much. It's just throwing money at a problem.

Of course... Harvard and Yale are ridiculously priced. (I think the people there are mainly there because they can afford it, not because they have the intelligence to go there)

quote: So, you seem to be saying, if people are poor, they shouldn't have any fun. They shouldn't be allowed to listen to music or watch tv, because it doesn't enhance economic opportunity. People should be able to hang out with their friends, it has nothing to do with economic opportunity. Why let poor people in parks or museums. Your argument makes no sense.

Watching TV may not enhance their economic status but it does not actively harm it in the same way that doing drugs would

as for your whole Enron reference... notice how they DID get caught and now they are in some pretty big trouble... what you mean the system let's that happen... the system caught it, didnt it?


thanks

	20-02-2003 05:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK That is something that plagues out whole society, not just the poor. People of all classes buy things all the time because they want it, even if it hurts them in some way.

(Picking up where you left off). What is it that creates the desire to have thigs beyond your means? Advertising, psychologically crafted messages designed to make you purchase things you don't need. The average American if bombarded with almost 2,000 commercials a week. All with one message: BUY! BUY! BUY! They study us, see what makes us respond, and use it. There are scientific schools devoted to the best methods of selling to a person, using unconscoius psychological clues to uncover a person's weaknesses and exploit them.

Albert, you have so little idea as to what you're talking about it isn't even funny. You're just a raging angst-ridden teen, a rebel without a clue. Educate yourself, go to a library and [i]learn something about poverty, its causes and its effects, before vomitting all over the place.

	20-02-2003 05:32									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer as for your whole Enron reference... notice how they DID get caught and now they are in some pretty big trouble... what you mean the system let's that happen... the system caught it, didnt it?

Many more have gotten away with it, or at least with minor slaps on the writs. One stell company has killed dozens of its workers through ignoring saftey, and has received the maximum fines allowed, less than a million dollars. It's more profitable for them to go on killing their employees and paying fines than it is to upgrade their safety.

I used Enron as an example, because it has enough name recognition. Do you remember the Savings and Loan debacle? How many of those execs went to jail? It cost the country almost 1.5 trillion dollars to clean up their mess. They got away with looting the nation.

	20-02-2003 05:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara (Picking up where you left off). What is it that creates the desire to have thigs beyond your means? Advertising, psychologically crafted messages designed to make you purchase things you don't need. The average American if bombarded with almost 2,000 commercials a week. All with one message: BUY! BUY! BUY! They study us, see what makes us respond, and use it. There are scientific schools devoted to the best methods of selling to a person, using unconscoius psychological clues to uncover a person's weaknesses and exploit them.

Thanx Che. I couldn't have said it better myself. Your language skills are much better than mine

	20-02-2003 05:33									#39
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Chegitz:

Why do I got to go to the library to learn about the world when I can go outside right now on my block and see exactly what we're talking about right now?

I think the liberals and leftists are too busy reading up on disertations on issues while being completely removed from the real world


thanks

	20-02-2003 05:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Why do I got to go to the library to learn about the world when I can go outside right now on my block and see exactly what we're talking about right now?

Because you can't just make an assumption, go look for examples, and then make a conclussion. Using the library would give you more information to make a decision. Perhaps you would see through your prejudice.

	20-02-2003 05:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Chegitz: Why do I got to go to the library to learn about the world when I can go outside right now on my block and see exactly what we're talking about right now?

Just because you can see it doesn't mean you can understand it. This whole thread you've only shown ignorance and stupidity. If you look up in the sky, it's obvious the sun moves around the Earth. If you look at the ground, it's obvious the Earth is flat.

Maybe while you're at the library you can pick up a book on English.

	20-02-2003 06:17									#42
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Why do people play into Speers trolls? It makes no sense....

	20-02-2003 07:51									#43
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No.

Mr Social Darwinist didn't take the time to understand the issues and probably will never do so.

	20-02-2003 08:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I used Enron as an example, because it has enough name recognition. Do you remember the Savings and Loan debacle? How many of those execs went to jail? It cost the country almost 1.5 trillion dollars to clean up their mess. They got away with looting the nation.

The (im)moral of this story is, if you want to be a crook, be the biggest one of them all. Then you can get away pretty much unscathed.

	20-02-2003 08:51									#45
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Much of what Speer says is true, although I was going to challenge parts of the essay Lazarus posted until I saw it came from Speer. Since Albert doesn't respond to my posts, I see little reason to respond to his. Below are my thoughts on why poverty exists in large cities, mostly black "inner" cities:

1) Liberals run most if not all of these cities.
2) That means higher taxes, more union corruption, more crime, and more waste.
3) Washington, D.C. spends alot on public schools, something like $10,000 per student, but how much of that really is really spent on teaching students? How much is wasted on union corruption and bureaucratic cronyism?
4) The drug war impacts inner cities more than any other segment of society, that creates more violence.
5) With more violence, hope for a future diminishes.
6) With reduced hope, more people don't take getting an education seriously.
7) Public schools have difficulty getting rid of disruptive "students" and lousy teachers.
8) That hurts the potential of serious students seeking an education.
9) Welfare has the effect of trying to replace fathers with government handouts thereby creating incentives for out of wedlock births.
10) Liberals consistently tell the poor blacks that their condition is not their fault - blame rich conservative whites instead.
11) The primary factor in poverty is illegitimacy, any program promoting illegitimacy is a recipe for disaster.
12) One reason why business tries to avoid investing in impoverished countries with unstable or leftist regimes is because of the risk of "nationalising" the investments.
While liberals running these cities might not outright steal the investments made by businesses, they do impose higher taxes and more regulations arbitrarily, and that does translate into investment risk. "Empowerment Zones" was an idea promoted to bypass this risk by providing incentives for businesses to invest in the inner city, but look what happened during the LA riots over Rodney King. Why would a business owner want to invite that kind of risk?
13) Minimum wages in large cities are often higher than the national wage, but minimum wages reduce jobs and job opportunities. Poor, unskilled young people just aren't economically worth $6/hour because they don't produce $6+ an hour. If these people can't even get on the first rung of the ladder, even one that pays $4/hour, how will they start climbing the ladder to increased wages? Of course, thanks to the drug war, they can make lots of money by selling drugs.

	20-02-2003 09:21									#46
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Berzerker,

I believe in school choice too. But instead of the students being able to choose the school, the school should be able to choose the students. The reason education is so screwed up is that students and parents really don't care about education anymore. Parents insist on their kids not being held accountable. Students can be very disruptive and there is absolutely nothing the school can do. In most cases, when the school tries to do anything the parents become adversarial and can cause a lot of problems.

In California we have a new graduation test that students have to pass in order to graduate. It's very low standard, but still when it takes effect (next year) a great deal of students are going to have all the credits for graduation, but they will not recieve a diploma. That will show the real crisis to the public. I don't know what will happen then, but certainly there will be some real changes in our state.

	20-02-2003 10:27									#47
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Yup, discipline is essential, but lacking in far too many schools. When I was in school and did something wrong, I had to face my parents who correctly laid the blame on me. But now it seems many parents go after the schools and teachers for the character flaws of the students. I don't care how much money is spent on schools, if children don't want an education, they won't get one and many will simply make it more difficult for others to get educated. We don't see this problem nearly as widespread in private schools because they are private and the parents are paying directly for the education.

	20-02-2003 11:03									#48
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No, you don't see it in private schools because private schools don't have to take troublesome children. They get to pick the cream of the crop.

	20-02-2003 11:09									#49
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It's too bad we lost the desire for education that we had when sputnik was launched. I can not see any possible way of getting back to that point.

	20-02-2003 11:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It's too bad we lost the desire for education that we had when sputnik was launched. I can not see any possible way of getting back to that point.

That's a myth. Kids today do more homework and have more work in general, 50% more than twenty years ago. Despite people saying how horrible our school system is, we still do most of the inovation and scientific experiementation in the world. Somehow these underperforming undereducated kids are writing the world's software, designing the world's machines, and innovating the world's new medical techniques.

Stop believing the bourgeois press, comrade.

	20-02-2003 11:23									#51
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There is a group of students from each generation that seem to be superstudents, but that group seems to be getting smaller and smaller. Any teacher will tell you that the situation with education has gotten worse year by year ever since about 1970. It's not just the media saying it.

	20-02-2003 11:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK There is a group of students from each generation that seem to be superstudents, but that group seems to be getting smaller and smaller.

And yet, within every industry that requires education, it's still dominated by white male Americans. Frankly, American education is no worse than Japanese or European educational systems, to which they are constantly compared. It's just that commentators play a shell game, comparing their best schools against our average schools. We also send far more students to college as a percentage than most other countries. There are problems, but the system is hardly in crisis.

	20-02-2003 11:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We also send far more students to college as a percentage than most other countries. There are problems, but the system is hardly in crisis.

True, however that brings up another problem. Many of these students have to take remedial courses when they get to college because they don't meet minimum proficiency requirements. It's a strain on the colleges.... I'm talking about state colleges of course.

	20-02-2003 11:55									#54
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quote: That's a myth. Kids today do more homework and have more work in general, 50% more than twenty years ago. Despite people saying how horrible our school system is, we still do most of the inovation and scientific experiementation in the world. Somehow these underperforming undereducated kids are writing the world's software, designing the world's machines, and innovating the world's new medical techniques. Stop believing the bourgeois press, comrade.

I would argue that our school system is indeed inferior to the rest of the developed world (and some of the developing world). Look at who's in hard science grad schools, for instance. They're usually foreigners, not Americans.

Piling busy work in front of students doesn't help 'em learn. I'd say that such a policy actually prevents learning. The ultimate problems are lax standards and no expectation of competency or intelligence out of students. Poverty and underpaid schools and teachers certainly don't help either.

	20-02-2003 11:55									#55
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Good Night Che

	20-02-2003 21:56									#56
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The marxists had a third of the world by themselves to prove all their theories and failed. You don't need to argue. Just see the results. Just see in which terrible state Russia was after the URSS felt. Just see the difference between eastern and western Germany. Or what about North Korea and South Korea? China and Taiwan/Hong Kong? And many many more examples.

The proves are there. Is just that some people don't want to see them. There is no worst blind that the one who doesn't want to see.

	20-02-2003 22:09									#57
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa The marxists had a third of the world by themselves to prove all their theories and failed. You don't need to argue. Just see the results. Just see in which terrible state Russia was after the URSS felt.

so you're saying a capitialist country would have succeeded after a devistaing world war, a bloody revolution, while being shoved into an arms race with a nation with an enormously larger pool of money to begin with, that didn't wish to have any dealing with them?

i doubt it. socialism has never been given a fair shot, america always gets in the way some how.

anyway, addressing speer: if the people in your city are stupid, dont wish to learn, sit around doing drugs all day, then they are of no use to society. AND tons of them are probably sucking on the welfare teet. just go all vigiliante-stalinist on them and cleanse your society to all it's glory.

	20-02-2003 22:39									#58
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX anyway, addressing speer: if the people in your city are stupid, dont wish to learn, sit around doing drugs all day, then they are of no use to society. AND tons of them are probably sucking on the welfare teet. just go all vigiliante-stalinist on them and cleanse your society to all it's glory.

Christ, I was hoping no one would ever put those ideas in his head.

	20-02-2003 22:44									#59
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Dumbass quote of the day

quote: Poverty (at least in the city) is not the result of economics.

And poverty was very rampant and much worse before the social progressive programs that were created before WW2. But why let a little thing like historical fact get in the way of another brain-dead Speer rant.

	21-02-2003 00:13									#60
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX so you're saying a capitialist country would have succeeded after a devistaing world war, a bloody revolution, while being shoved into an arms race with a nation with an enormously larger pool of money to begin with, that didn't wish to have any dealing with them? i doubt it. socialism has never been given a fair shot, america always gets in the way some how. anyway, addressing speer: if the people in your city are stupid, dont wish to learn, sit around doing drugs all day, then they are of no use to society. AND tons of them are probably sucking on the welfare teet. just go all vigiliante-stalinist on them and cleanse your society to all it's glory.

What really surprises me about socialism, comunism, and all these similar ideologies is the very good way in what they sell themselves. I'm sure they would make for a terrible great marketing experts.

Where does this silly idea that socialism has never given a fair shot comes from? Can I remember you several examples? China? Russia? Cuba? Eastern Europe? North Korea? Panama? Are you saying that the "evil" capitalists managed to disturbe ALL of that experiments? In that case these country governors were plain stupid to allow it. But I don't really believe that. Russia is big enough to maintain itself without having to commerce with anyone. Even more, Russia did maintain Cuba, North Korea, and several other countries during the communism. So, you have one third of the world for yourself and you blame the rest of the world for not being fair with you? It's very easy to blame others for your own faults.

Again, there several very interesting examples to see at:
North/South Korea.
West/East Germany.
Taiwan-Hong Kong/China.

Do I need to say more? Compare the level of development in the capitalist countries with the socialist ones. Of course, Now you are going to tell me that the evil US spoiled the socialist countries, but the truth is that they spoiled themselves all alone.

Do you want another example? Look at what the socialist Chavez is doing to Venezuela.

So here we have a system that failed systematically in EVERY place that was implanted, and the very good publicists manage to blame it on the capitalists. I would love to have this publicists by my side.

And by the way, for me West Germany is a capitalist country that managed to suceed after a very devastating world war. And a very ungrateful also.