20-02-2003 00:25									#1
	You're trying to fix the wrong thing, Marxists... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Poverty (at least in the city) is not the result of economics. There's plenty of jobs here and there would probably be a lot more if it wasnt for high business taxes.

The problem is people's stupidity. It's amazing how much money you spend when you just got to buy dimes and ecstacy (twenty dollars a pop! come on... and thats the cheap ass city price)... got to get jordans and jerseys... got to get a new car stereo system...

it's not that people here in Philly don't got income. it's that they spend all their money on un-neccessaries while they stuck eating Ramon noodles for dinner.

Add in the whole single mothers and broken homes **** and you got poverty... don't got **** to do with the evil capitalists


thanks

	20-02-2003 00:39									#2
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well i think marxists could argue that capitalists sell these images/items of status and happiness to poor people to keep them enslaved to businessmen.

BTW i heard an ad on my local disco/funk/RnB station from hennesey malt liquior promoting black history month. WHAT THE **** DOES MALT LIQUIOR HAVE TO DO WITH BLACK HISTORY MONTH!?!??!

Last edited by MRT144 on 20-02-2003 at 00:47

	20-02-2003 00:42									#3
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I don't even want to venture a sarcastic comment of a guess... ...other than to say, "absolutely nothing."

	20-02-2003 00:45									#4
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Hey! Ghetto folk! Mr "Junior Social Darwinist" here thinks you're stupid!

	20-02-2003 00:48									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 well i think marxists could argue that capitalists sell these images/items of status and happiness to poor people to keep them enslaved to businessmen.

Of course, they are not responsible for their own actions. Hey! I've got an idea! Lets use the power of government to legislate against those evil capitalist tempters!

	20-02-2003 00:48									#6
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quote: “The shallow consider liberty a release from all law, from every constraint. The wise man sees in it, on the contrary, the potent Law of Laws.” It is perhaps the most sought for, most fought for, most died for aspect of humanity. Kings and clergy, peasants and slaves, merchants and clerks, have all fought for it; been united by it; brought forth chaos by it. And yet, it still continues on. From the days of ancient Greece to the present, Liberty has been cried for for centuries. And yet it still is. How can something so abstract, so relative, be consistent throughout the whole history of humanity? In this essay, I shall discuss why liberty is sought, how it is sustained and lost, and how it is obtained once more. Civilization is something never inborn. With each passing generation, it must be borne anew. We enter this world as libertarian savages who do as we wish when we wish and without restraint, but leave it a bit enslaved but much wiser. For civilized man must have grooves through which thought may fall into easily, lest humanity revert to its original savage state. This morality that bores such grooves is the parent of civilization. Would the acquisition of liberty force the grooves to be refilled and never bored again? Would it force morality and civilization out of the human mind? When Patrick Henry shouted his stirring words and Thomas Jefferson declared his manifesto, neither would have anticipated liberty to nullify morality. To them (and others), liberty was not doing what one wants to do, but doing what one should do. They felt that Man was capable of controlling and judging himself (and would take his actions carefully), without the authority of a supreme leader. Man’s authority would, at the very most, come from on high. How the liberal message has changed! One can hardly say that we, as a whole, do what we should do. Modern man, robbed of religion, family, and community, stands alone upon the sands of time and fancies himself as a loner against the world. The savage is borne yet again in the midst of industry and civilization. Why? The American patriots were hardly enslaved when they wished for their freedom. The Anglican mind has long been known as libertine. From there, feudalism vanished and industry began; the Protestant reformation, while not originating there, gained strength in England; the first parliamentary government was established. The English, like the Hellenes before them, never had to suffer from the whims of gods on earth simply because the ‘gods’ could not control them. Just as the Hellenes had no noble charioteers, the English had no knights (the few who existed were no match for the bow and gun fielded by a peasant). And yet, despite living in such a libertine society, the American patriots sparked revolution. Could this be the start of the degeneration which Otto Khan, American banker, described as, “The deadliest foe of democracy”? Yet, despite this, the early American patriots deserve credit as true libertines, for at least they grasped morality. Perhaps they even felt that they could, like so many colonists about the world, break away from the motherland and control themselves. Thus, in that sense, early America was not founded by libertarians but was in itself libertarian. Moving through history, we find liberty checked by morality and religion. Reaching the present day, however, we find religion forsaken for complete liberty. What caused such a drastic change? During the 19th century, the community changed from a farming village to that of a bustling city. And with the vast numbers of citizens, the immigrants piling in in fantastic numbers, and the weakening of the Church, morality began to weaken. Lacking faith in God and taking little care in others’ opinions, the industrialized man’s liberty could not be countered by a peer or divinely enforced morality. Thus, the savage returned. (Tommorow, I shall continue by discussing liberty into the twentieth century, why it leads to degeneration, and how to return liberty without forsaking morality) Thank you. Reaching the twentieth century, we find the degeneration of morality. In the 1920’s, what with prohibition, morals would seem to be at a height. Rather, they are not. High spirits after a successful end to a bitter war, a booming economy, and the existance of credit, as well as the growing importance placed on ‘youth’ resulted in the ‘Roaring Twenties’. Nevertheless, this time period was nothing compared to what was to come later. (it is interesting to note that the Roaring Twenties were succeeded by depression, the rise of Fascism, and a world war) The adults of the 1950’s found themselves in a new period not unlike the 1920’s. Yet borne into the harshness of the Depression and the ensuing world war, they did not take their money, technology, and success lightly. Rather, they cherished it. And, in the hopes of not causing their children to suffer like they did, they did all they could for their children. They were indeed noble, yet misguided. For when the children of the 50’s grew into adults in the next decade and attended college, they looked back upon their near-spoilage and compared it to the impoverished third world nations. Many probably had noble intents, but no matter how noble these intents were, the actions were catastrophic. Surrounded by Liberal teachers (of the old school, it should be noted [ie- Rooseveltian]) and Marxist fire-brand students, many turned to the far left and did so violently. Universities were besieged, books were burned, and the administration collapsed. Yet, when these college students left the campus, the situation cooled down. Nevertheless, the victory was but hollow for those students became journalists, teachers, politicians. And today, we find the results of that. Shame (the means of which morality is enforced) is nonexistant. A piece of dung thrown on a canvas is called art; a song about raping whores and gang wars is called music. And what happens when people attack such things? The song-writers and artists declare their liberties are being attacked. How can a nation founded on democracy, in the rule of the people, exist if the character of the citizens is debased? (I know the above was rather weak but tomorrow I shall cite how morality may be restored) Morals can be described as the taking value of society’s opinion of you. A prostitute is not thought of highly by society (though maybe now its the other way around) and, thus, she is immoral. The same can be said of any trouble maker, thief, murderer, or punk. However, this leads to quite a quandary. Morals are essentially relative. What if the prostitute does not care what others think of her? What if she says, “I don’t care what they think” (sound familiar, liberals?). Then, she is absolutely immoral and can not become moral until her whole sense of value is reconstructed. Why should she value others opinions of her? Because we can not exist without others. When one is down, he is surely helped. Comradery is indeed older than civilization. It is why we, as a species, have succeeded in becoming the most advanced creatures to grace this planet. But if society despises a lewd individual, she will not be helped. Or would she? Presently, as the welfare system is set up a teenager who has a child can ecieve government money. This money is increased as she has more children (which she, having no job, probably would have the time to do). Thus, one could say that welfare is only supporting immoral behaviour. Thus, if morals are relative to the individual (and to society, for societies have different standards which can be lowered), how can we make man universally moral. The key is to turn subjective morals into absolute morals. Frankly, I believe this is easier to accomplish than it sounds. Here are a few steps that can be taken to return morality without sacrificing freedom: The Uncaring Mentality: I believe that this mentality, indoctrinated into the youth for decades by the Liberals (in the form of, “Who cares what they think?”), is the reason why morality is seemingly gone. If people care about society’s opinion, they will do as society wants and, thus, a subjective morality (of the society) becomes absolute to the citizens of such a society. But how can this be achieved? There are a few path ways to do so. Teaching children at an early age in lessons of, “Be bad now and I’ll be bad to you later; Be good now and I’ll be good to you later.” can cause them to realize that each action has a result and a consequence. Thus, when, years later, they ponder a crime, they will remember that commiting such a crime would only result in suffering for them. Likewise, when they can do something moral for their fellowman, they would do so, for they would figure that if they were in trouble later, they’d be helped. Next, one could re-establish faith. Prayer and ritual is perhaps but the humanizing aspect of religion. The primary component of religion, rather, is morality. Rituals very between civilizations but morals rarely do so. Religion is good in that it has a built-in enforcement. Besides the above stated moral mentality, it also brings forth a divine witness of one’s actions and an even greater reward (or penalty) for such actions. Surely one will treat others well if he is promised heaven? Yet the above two can not work always. There will always be deviants who do not conform to such moral mentalities as well as those who believe that they are not being judged by others or by a divine being. It is always in an attempt to bring such people into morality that purges begin and rights are lost. Yet should we ignore them? Even if they could potentially dismantle the system (as the hippies did)....? Are the lose of rights worth eliminating them? For today, I shall end this essay with this question posed to you: Do morals have value and exist if we all are the same?

	20-02-2003 00:49									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Poverty (at least in the city) is not the result of economics. There's plenty of jobs here and there would probably be a lot more if it wasnt for high business taxes.

Explain then why there was more poverty when business taxes were lower. In fact, the Fed has a habit of manipulating the unemployment rate in order to keep wages, and thus inflation, down.

quote: The problem is people's stupidity.

And ignorance is a result of poverty. Schools don't have the funds to educate. People don't see a future, so why try? Lack of proper prenatal and nutrition care impacts brain development.

quote: Add in the whole single mothers and broken homes **** and you got poverty... don't got **** to do with the evil capitalists

So, an economic system which tries to make people alienated and selfish isn't responsible for people acting aliented and selfish? Men can't make enough to feed their families, so they don't stay with them. Women don't have access to community child care, so they have to stay home. You didn't see these problems in East Germany or the USSR. You don't see them now in Cuba. It's a capitalist thing.

But you never understand.

	20-02-2003 00:49									#8
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i dont believe it either caligastia...but thats a line of reasoning that i could possibly see.

	20-02-2003 00:50									#9
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That, of course, was "Geek Nazi Speer". Then he turned into "Hormonal Speer and posted like this....

quote: I wasnt going to go down today... the recent things with lee ann caused me to not want to come... i told jackie that... but she insisted and begged that i should come down as soon as i could... i told her i'd be there at 7:00 pm... after all, she's my good friend and she always says how i'm one of her best friends and how that means so much to her... she used to like me, too... Well so I came down there, and I got off the buss at around 7:05. There was rebecca, the girl that introduced me to her neighbourhood... She told me that lee ann was with two of her friends who were nearby. She led me up to them... after greetings, we then started walking down to the road that conencts the neighbourhood to the main road (where the bus-stop is)... The road itself is quite gravely and pebbled as it was made through a little forrested region, the forests replaced by a few houses. Continuing down, there is a paved road... i didnt get that far... Two guys came up... pretty short.. probably like 5 feet tall... Rebecca and Lee ann and her friends stood there, then Rebecca vanished and it was just lee ann and her friends with these two guys who started talking **** to me They started to ask why the **** was i threatening ed... they said they heard i was gonna stab him.. i said i only threatened to beat him up and that was it... and i didnt have a prob with ed anymore... i said that like two weeks ago... i didnt care about ed anymore, especially since he was no longer going with lee ann... put these two guys kept on insisting... suddenly, i heard footsteps on the gravel.... I turn around and i see five guys coming up from the neighboruhood... more ****ing skaters... i turn back to the two and see four more guys coming down from the main road, behind the two... the skaters surrounded me, lee ann and her friends just standing there, seemingly oblivious to what was going on... surrounded, i quickly tried to come up with a way to get out of a fight... i told them that i didnt care about ed and i wasnt going to fight him, but they ****ing threatened me, saying what if i was rumbled right ****ing there? two or more skaters came up from the town as well as a normal guy named Dave (jackie's ex-bf) and some girl i never saw before... suddenly, a pebble hit me... it was followed by another and another... suddenly a large rock struck my back... suddenly, a white thing wizzed by me from one of lee ann's friends... this girl... whoever she was... struck one of the skaters, who said he wanted to beat her up as well as me... Dave then went up and told the skaters to back off from me, but the two guys who first confronted me, told me to start following them down to their neighbourhood... i did... following them down from the groval to the paved neighbourhood streets... one of the girls i never saw before went to me and asked me why i didnt fight... suddenly, Danny (a ****ing 18 year old skater with a ****ing kid) pushed me as he walked by... the girl said, you just gonna take that?dont be a *****... dont worry... you can take him... Dave, who over heard, told me not to bother and to leave right now, cause he didnt want to see me get beat up... but i followed and went up to dan, asking him why the **** he pushed me... he said cause he ****ing didnt like me and he wanted to ****ing beat my ass... with fifteen guys near him, surrounding me, i couldnt do any ****.. they started walkign away and i followed them down furether into the centre of the ****ing neighbourhood... then they stopped in the middle of the street, dan leaning against a parked car on the street side... going on the side-walk, this kid named Jake went to me and tried to understand the situation... the initial confrontation was at the front of his house... he told me that i shoudl leave cause i had no chance... then suddenlyt one of the skaters got the bright idea that i may have a knife... i did... my swiss army knife that i always carry.. they told me to take out the **** from my pockets... i pulled out the knife... Dan shouted i had a knife and ran to his house, saying he was going to bring his own knife... a real knife from his ****ing knife colleciton.... Jake said he'd walk down to the bus stop with me and make sure nothing happened... realizing that i would soon get attacked by a guy with a knife who had the support of twenty-five or so skaters... i decided to agree and started to walk away... dave joined in and they told me to not come down here again unless i wanted to get my ass beat... Andy, a 17 year old, who wanted to beat me up as much as dan... followed, shouting curses at me... dvae left... but jake continued on to teh bus-stop, telling me that lee ann aint worth all this ****... we got to the bus stop and he shook my hand, telling me i did good and not to come down again or i'll get my ass beat... as he walked away, he suddenly turned around and said he was gonna stay... the next second... i saw dan with five guys coming down to us... dan told me he wanted to fight me and i was a ***** not to... i knew he had a knife and he had five guys with him... he said he wanted to fight me in the pit... an area of the park behind the bus stop along the road where gang fights and random beatings often took place... jake told me to not to do it... the bus then started coming down... Jake said quietly, "just get on the bus..." i listened and took a step up to the bus... dan started cursing at me... i turned around and put my middle finger up to them as the doors closed and sat down and left.... i learned something else... jackie asked me to come down... she was playing with me... all this time tricking me...

	20-02-2003 00:51									#10
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Now he's "Vanilla Ice Speer". Which do you prefer?

	20-02-2003 00:53									#11
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i prefer the speer who gets kicked out of his house as soon as he graduates from high school. maybe that will end the madness!

	20-02-2003 00:56									#12
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Actually, he seems to think he's Albert X. He's spending too much time at the Nation of Islam temple, learning how to hate Yakub.

	20-02-2003 00:56									#13
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I ceased to believe anything about his home life years ago.

	20-02-2003 01:15									#15
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why not go one step further and cease to believe albert is real? and that takes care of that

	20-02-2003 02:06									#16
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Laz: ROTFLMAO

What phase you'd fit Speer's most glorious adventure, "Then me and my friends stuffed this one guy in the locker - PEER PRESSURE RAWKS!" thread? Because I seem to remember it going between the geek-Nazi and Alberto the Child of Streets phases.

	20-02-2003 02:29									#17
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Laz- did Albert Speer write that first quote, how society has to reinforce morality?

	20-02-2003 03:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Laz- did Albert Speer write that first quote, how society has to reinforce morality?

You should have been here a couple of years ago

There's also the anecdote about a stolen leather jacket and being send to Lebanon...

Laz for savingthese posts for eternity

	20-02-2003 04:44									#19
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Laz:

What the hell does this have to do with this topic? I remember that post. I used that long ass article for a school essay. How old is it? I'm surprised that I havent changed my beliefs at all since then. Only thing is that now I take less time to type them up. My style has not changed (I know i talked about philly years ago) it's just that i put less time into typing this out.


back on topic...

quote: And ignorance is a result of poverty. Schools don't have the funds to educate.

I disagree. I attend a public school in Philly which got to be the worst school district in the country (it was recently taken over by the state of PA) and frankly, I don't see lack of funding as being the major issue. Teachers get paid 40K which really aint that bad. We got computers and all that ****...

the problem got to do with the stance that students take when they come into the door. Most people don't give a **** about getting an education. Plenty just cut and the rest got an attitude of i'll go to school just so i can get my diploma but I'll graduate with the minimal knowledge in my head. Then they stay working some bad job, etc...

I am positive that if you got students who want to learn and, even if you sticked them into a one room shanty class-room, they could go to Yale...

Explain how passing out more and more money around is going to solve the problem of students not giving a damn... you going to pay them to get good grades?

quote: People don't see a future, so why try?

Ever think that its that weed smoke that is stoping them from seeing the road ahead?

quote: So, an economic system which tries to make people alienated and selfish isn't responsible for people acting aliented and selfish?

Capitalism makes people alienated? Explain corporations then... and the stock market...

and frankly, capitalism's selfishness can enhance morality... I will quote from the selection that Laz so nicely saved...

quote: Teaching children at an early age in lessons of, “Be bad now and I’ll be bad to you later; Be good now and I’ll be good to you later.” can cause them to realize that each action has a result and a consequence.

You are good because it will help you... that's selfish but also is for the greater good


thanks

	20-02-2003 04:56									#20
	Re: You're trying to fix the wrong thing, Marxists... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Poverty (at least in the city) is not the result of economics.

This is your assumption. It's wrong, and so everything you said after that is wrong. It should be plain to see that unemployment and inflation cause poverty. That is, when people lose their jobs they are in danger of poverty, and when their rent goes up they may slip into poverty. If you don't perceive yourself as being in danger of poverty than you think that it's because you're smarter than the people who are. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

	20-02-2003 05:00									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

How do you argue with a person who doesn't even understand the basic concepts?

First off, 40K isn't bad from the point of view of a kid, but it won't get you a house in Philly ('cept in the really bad neighborhoods). Furthermore, you have to work many years to be eligible for that pay grade. On top of that, how many students are taught by each teacher? What is the condition of the learning environment?

Speaking of ignorance, your grammar is attrocious. It pains me to read your writing.

No, I don't think pot smoking keeps them from seeing a future. Many successful people, including the former President of the US, smoked pot. Yeah, if you're a pot head, and do nothing but get high, but that doesn't come close to accounting for the numbers of poor.

And corporations and the stock market have nothing to do with alienation.

As for selfishness enhancing morality, BS.

	20-02-2003 05:05									#22
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Duncan:

I live in inner city Philly. I see 'poverty' everyday and the reasons for it is as I said... people spend all their money on jordans and drugs...


thanks

	20-02-2003 05:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer capitalism's selfishness can enhance morality

WHAT?! You are confusing morality with ..... Hell, I have no idea, probably just selfishness. Morality is a social concept. God put us all on this earth so that we may learn to relate to each other not so that we should just be selfish. Where the hell are you getting this crap?

	20-02-2003 05:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Duncan: I live in inner city Philly. I see 'poverty' everyday and the reasons for it is as I said... people spend all their money on jordans and drugs... thanks

You've said absolutely nothing about the cause of poverty only the result.

	20-02-2003 05:08									#25
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Chegitz:

you did not counter anything I said... what is your solution to improve schools? Tossing more money at schools? How does that fix the attitude of students of not giving a damn?

And it's not just weed... it's crack... it's heroine... it's everything. it's pre-marital sex... not giving a damn about the future... all these contribute to poverty. Notice how none of them got to do with economic oppurtunity.

And how does selfishness NOT enhance morality? Why do you not go a kill someone? 1) You will spend your life in prison 2) if you are a theist, you will go to hell... selfish reasons to not commit a moral crime...


Thanks

	20-02-2003 05:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I see 'poverty' everyday and the reasons for it is as I said... people spend all their money on jordans and drugs...

Because they all make the mistake of not living the puratin lifestyle proscribed by a little fascist white boy.

I'm probably going to have to ignore you soon, simply because your lack of intelligence makes me want to insult you, which I'd rather not do.

	20-02-2003 05:11									#27
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DuncanK:

I contend that immorality is the CAUSE of poverty... NOT the product... rich people do drugs and have pre-marital sex and all that ****... so immorality can not possibly be the result of poverty.

What it is is a cycle of cause and effect... a person has pre-marital sex... gets a kid with no father... that kid is more likely to have sex when they're young too... and you got a cycle going on where cause and effect have blended into one


thanks

	20-02-2003 05:13									#28
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Chegitz:

When you don't got food don't buy jordans... hows that a prescribed puritan morality... that's common sense.

	20-02-2003 05:14									#29
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not used to being called a white boy...

and chegitz, respond to my arguements... disprove me...

	20-02-2003 05:15									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer And it's not just weed... it's crack... it's heroine... it's everything. it's pre-marital sex... not giving a damn about the future... all these contribute to poverty.

Right on the money

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Notice how none of them got to do with economic oppurtunity.

Absolutely wrong

It has everything to do with perceived economic opportunity. That is why upper class people are more successfull, because it's much easier to visualize a successfull future. It's not rational to try to achieve a goal unless you believe that the sacrifice is worth it.

Albert, how the hell can you believe that people want to be poor?