20-02-2003 07:09									#1
	Don't buy MOO3 Put an end to popups!

I gotta say,

If the game is ready and it's just been sitting for weeks because of what the marketing people say would make for a more timely (read, profitable) release, then I would love nothing more than to have zero copies of moo3 be sold. (Please read further..I am BY NO MEANS against profits!!!

Kind of a statement saying that after all your development time, holding the game from your fans (read, money base) for weeks in an attempt to lure others to buy it, is just gonna blow up in yer face.

Of course, that's impossible, because the hard core fans WILL buy it no matter when it's released, which is the weakness I think they are preying upon (and I MAY include myself in this group), and I know that money making is what any business is about, but how can they think that delaying the game if it is ready can be more profitable?

Probably because they know that the hard core fan base will be there with there money no matter when the game gets released, giving them time to say "let's time it for the casual dude, the hard core moo fan is there no matter what".

But, in the case of moo3, I think the hard core fan base is the majority of their sales.

It seems that they are delaying in order to appeal to the casual gamer. Which is at odds with the reviews here, since the reviews indicate a game with much much more depth than any casual gamer would be pleased with.

In other words, I think they are making the hard core fans suffer because they think they can sell more if they wait until the casual guys have had enough of their other releases.

Knowing all along that they can bank on the loyal Moo fans' money no matter how many times they yank yer chain.

I realize that it is very hard for hard core moo fans to not buy the game, but wow, would it be great if no one did and sent a message to IG saying that they cant mistreat their loyal fan base.

I understand all the marketting involved, i'm just expressing something that I have been thinking about.

I could be wrong, but hey, this board is for opinions right?

	20-02-2003 07:13									#2
	Remove this text

no offense, but i think your conspiracy theory is bunk because you make a lot of assertions without any backup. Why in the world would delaying the game make MORE money for infogrames? Why would it make it more appealing to the casual gamer any more for February 25th than, say, last week? who cares?

i think the real reason is that they want a more-or-less simultanious global release instead of US now and the rest of the world next month.

	20-02-2003 07:20									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

This is utter rubbish...

vee, in the same post where you have proposed this insanity (which would unfairly hurt the designer for the screw-ups of the publisher), you have admitted that it would be meaningless and hollow.

It seems you've defeated your own argument.

As for marketing to the casual gamer, there's always a HOPE that some small and greatly fortunate number of them will awaken from their slumber and realize the superiority of games like this. The addition of each individual convert to the cause of the strategy gamer should be welcomed with open arms

	20-02-2003 07:24									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I have no idea, really why the game was delayed. I don't like the delay at all. I have emailed IG and have posted numerous comments about same in several newsgroups where IG/QS folks lurk. I am incensed and feel dissed.

But not buy MOO3?...AREYOUOUTTAYERFREAKINMIND?

A few hundred hard-core idealists not buying this game would have about as much impact on these folks as a Hoboken PTA meeting does upon the price of tea in China.

But, anyway...check your assumptions. We have a lot of rumors and speculation about the whys of the delay but darn few facts.

If IG delayed sales, they probably had their reasons and if you were a shareholder, you'd trust the corporate leadership to maximize profits on your investments.

It's all about the bottom line, lad, not about what a few fans want. Wake up and smell the coffee. Protest will not change the paradigm.

	20-02-2003 07:26									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

vee4473, based on your post it is perfectly clear to me that you will suffer much more if you don't buy Moo3 than IG would if you don't.

Btw I doubt that the "loyal fan base" (ie. those who take it as a personal offense that the game is delayed) will generate a significant chunk of the Moo3 sales.

	20-02-2003 07:32									#6
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just posting an opinion guys, i appreciate the responses.

sorry if i offended anyone.

	20-02-2003 07:37									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

@vee4473: Yup... this board is for opinions.

I think you should take into consideration the fact that IG intended to have this game out a long time ago and so they have had to adjust their plans accordingly. No one is happy about having to wait for something that they want which includes IG, QS, and the gamers who have been following the development of MOO3 for all these months. Had everything gone perfectly and according to plan, we wouldn't be here. But almost nothing ever goes according to plan and you just have to make adjustments and do what you can.

IG is a business and they will do what is best for the future of that business. They have to balance out the need to make as much money as possible with the need to satisfy the customer. Have they achieved this? I don't know the answer to that and I don't think anyone on this board can truthfully answer that. Not even, apparently, Chantz.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think that there are many more factors out there that should be considered before passing judgement on IG.

	20-02-2003 07:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This is utter rubbish... vee, in the same post where you have proposed this insanity (which would unfairly hurt the designer for the screw-ups of the publisher), you have admitted that it would be meaningless and hollow. It seems you've defeated your own argument. As for marketing to the casual gamer, there's always a HOPE that some small and greatly fortunate number of them will awaken from their slumber and realize the superiority of games like this. The addition of each individual convert to the cause of the strategy gamer should be welcomed with open arms

I agree that new gamers are great.

What do you mean I have defeated my own argument?

Do you mean that by me saying that hard core fans will buy no matter what , then i've defeated myself?

tha was my whole point. That IG can bank on the hard core fans' money no matter what. So any boycott would be ridiculous..hence their strategy.

Just proposing a marketing strategy to strategy game fans

	20-02-2003 07:45									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by viciouscycle @vee4473: Yup... this board is for opinions. I think you should take into consideration the fact that IG intended to have this game out a long time ago and so they have had to adjust their plans accordingly. No one is happy about having to wait for something that they want which includes IG, QS, and the gamers who have been following the development of MOO3 for all these months. Had everything gone perfectly and according to plan, we wouldn't be here. But almost nothing ever goes according to plan and you just have to make adjustments and do what you can. IG is a business and they will do what is best for the future of that business. They have to balance out the need to make as much money as possible with the need to satisfy the customer. Have they achieved this? I don't know the answer to that and I don't think anyone on this board can truthfully answer that. Not even, apparently, Chantz. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think that there are many more factors out there that should be considered before passing judgement on IG.

My only point for this whole thread was to inquire as to why , after all this time, IG would delay the game if it is ready...You would think they would release as soon as possible, not hold the game for weeks if it is languishing in stores stock warehouses.

What possible reason?

And my guess was because they wanted to wait for a timed released to appeal to mass market, knowing that they could bank on loyal fans' money.

I wanted to question what I consider to be their position of "the loyal fans will buy no matter what".

I guess I got my response.

oh well

	20-02-2003 08:11									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

@vee4473: You want possible reasons? Here goes....

Maybe after all the delays and missed deadlines the distributors have told IG to give them a firm release date and so IG gave them one which they are now bound to.

Maybe they have contracts with distributors that force them to get copies to everyone at the same time so that no one gets a head start in selling the game.

Maybe they are timing the release so as to not to conflict with the sale of other games currently being released.

Maybe they are delaying the release just to spite you.

Maybe there were internal goings-on that have had an effect on the release that we have no way of knowing about.

Maybe they were afraid that a last-minute problem would show up and they wanted to have a cushion of time available to deal with it. Gee... what could possibly go wrong with the development of a game?

Maybe they had other projects hitting critical stages and they just couldn't get the necessary work done to get it out any sooner.

Look, of course they want to appeal to a mass market and sell as many games and make as much money as possible. That is a given and no one will argue that. IG is a business.

You are postulating that IG is intentionally abusing the loyal fans just to make money and therefore that is the only reason the release has been delayed. I am arguing that there are many other, more complex, and better reasons to explain IG's actions. IG can't control everything... they're only human. I would also argue that the primary reason for your opinion about the release is that you are simply tired of waiting for the game and have run out of patience.

Has IG really mistreated the loyal fans? Is waiting four weeks from the time a game goes gold to the time it is available in stores such a huge deal-breaker for you?

	20-02-2003 08:26									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 I wanted to question what I consider to be their position of "the loyal fans will buy no matter what". I guess I got my response. oh well

We should all get to together and launch an alternate protest, no fan is going to NOT buy MoO3 at all, but if everyone waited a month and didn't buy it until that month was over, that'd send a message...

	20-02-2003 08:36									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by MitchDev We should all get to together and launch an alternate protest, no fan is going to NOT buy MoO3 at all, but if everyone waited a month and didn't buy it until that month was over, that'd send a message...

Idealism...sigh...I remember it well.

Life is too short to tilt at windmills. Last time I did, the other guy sat it out and got the girl...I had to wait another 20 years for another right one to come along.

Let me know how it turns out. I'll be playing MOO3.

	20-02-2003 09:13									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks for supports the a-holes at IG...

They'll think they can contiune to get away with treating their customer base like @&%$ thanks to fanboi's who let them...

	20-02-2003 09:17									#14
	I am going to boycott for exactly 1 week after release Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is it silly? No more so than this waiting a few weeks for release theory thats floating around...

I am also boycotting a week because they didn't release the game last year...

(no not two weeks total - just one)

	20-02-2003 09:21									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You're right, I shouldn't buy a MoO3 game. I'll find one of you guys and beat you up in able to steal your copy of MoO3.

	20-02-2003 09:43									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Am I the only person who finds it hillarious that these people's idea of an effective protest for a game being DELAYED is to DELAY their purchase of the game.... .... and THEN still buy the game, thus not (in the end) denying any money to the publisher

(in fact, since the price may go up after the first week, they may end up paying more )

This is utter stupidity...

As another already said... have fun tilting at windmills... I'll be having fun playing MoO3

	20-02-2003 09:52									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Lord Almighty how childish can you get? As much as I love MOO and strategy games (I got my first strategy board game in 1978) it's just a game.
I'm also a conspiracy buff and even I don't believe anything was intentional about the delay. Hell, even on of the developers (Rantz) trolls the board giving us updates and inside info and gets berated for it.
What's all this pettiness you have in posting something like this?

	20-02-2003 12:12									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The dilemma is that IG deserves to go bankrupt, but QS doesn't.

IG is clinging to old fashioned ways of content distribution. Carrying little cardboard boxes around the whole world in the age of the Internet? Laff.

QS however probably did a good job and deserves to be paid, although the IG behemoth will suck up most of our money and waste it for their outdated ways.

Too bad there is no way to punish IG but help QS; or is there?

Last edited by darcy on 20-02-2003 at 12:40

	20-02-2003 12:16									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Do as you will...I'll be playing

	20-02-2003 13:44									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is MoO3 a good game?
If MoO3 bombs, will there be a MoO4?

Those are the only two questions I care about. I'm preordering because I believe from all the reviews that the answer to the first is undoubtedly yes. For that reason we want to support IG and especially QS so that they get rewarded for their efforts. That is the best way of ensuring that someone agrees to finance more games like MoO and that other classic games like Master of Magic get revived and handled with care and a considerable budget.

The alternative? Just look at Civ. Everyone knows it sells really well and was a massive market to tap in to. The only publisher to attempt to take it on and produce a similar game ran into trouble and lost money. Since then nobody else has attemted to produce other alternatives. The only people who lose out here are us, the customers.

Sure it would be nice if beancounters played no part in influencing release dates, but that is business. If they figure it will make them extra $ or save them $ to hold it back a month, so be it. If that makes the difference between them tabling plans for a MoO3 hi-res graphics patch this year, MoO4 next year or ignoring the franchise for years, then its we who benefit in the end.

	20-02-2003 16:53									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm not sure how it works, but does the developer get paid up front from the publisher regardless of how well the game sells?

kinda like an actor who gets 15 million regardless of how well a movie does?

	20-02-2003 17:01									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

of course, the real thing that got under my skin, and what inspired this thread, was when I started reading about how some stores have the game, but IG won't let them put it on the shelves.

Of course, I could have over reacted to rumors that aren't even true..how do I know if stores have copies and are being told to sit on them?

But the possibility of it being true (that IG is telling stores to hold onto games for a couple of weeks), just got on my nerves in this particular situation.

Even though i'm sure it happens with other games and all that.

In the case of moo3, i don't know....it just got to me.

and, once again, I started believing rumors that probably are false anyway.

	20-02-2003 18:25									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No one who is impatient enough to get upset over this would be able to make themselves boycott the game. I bet vee4473 will be first in line.

	20-02-2003 18:53									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You could be right Osweld.

I'm not upset anymore, the feeling has passed.

	20-02-2003 20:41									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My money has already been spent elsewhere, so waiting for this ione to hit the bargain bin or the "secondhand" shelf will be easy...

	20-02-2003 21:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 I'm not upset anymore, the feeling has passed.

Over time, one learns to recognize the sorts of impulses that pass like this... and not post on them

"Be quick to listen, but slow to speak, and slow to anger."

Now if only I could actually live like that...

	20-02-2003 21:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 of course, the real thing that got under my skin, and what inspired this thread, was when I started reading about how some stores have the game, but IG won't let them put it on the shelves. Of course, I could have over reacted to rumors that aren't even true..how do I know if stores have copies and are being told to sit on them.

From what I understand, this rumor has been pretty much debunked. However, what has not been disproven is wheter the distribution warehoues are sitting on it.

BTW, from what I understand, IG requested the dealy to give thier Tech support some time to ramp up on the game - especailly after Unreal came out. So, if true, the delay was actually for the betterment of the customer - in the long run.

	20-02-2003 21:24									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Boycotting would be ineffective and may hurt other offerings in the works. I, for one, would love to see an update to the MoM series as I feel it is the greatest TBS ever made. My money will go to MOO3 in the first few days not only because I think it will be a good game but because I think it will keep the doors open for other titles in this genre.

	21-02-2003 02:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MitchDev Thanks for supports the a-holes at IG... They'll think they can contiune to get away with treating their customer base like @&%$ thanks to fanboi's who let them...

Thanks for being so MATURE about this whole issue.

If you want to make a point then don't buy the game, that's your choice to make. However, do NOT attempt to impose your values and judgements on other folks or criticize their decisions simply because the decisions don't follow what YOU want to happen.

Geeze, save me from the folks who think the world sucks if they don't get their way *right_the_heck_now*.

	21-02-2003 02:56									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It's about more than the ridiculous delays, it's about the entire way they're handled PR and their customers.

But since your pretty rabid yourself, all you can see is a company that can do no wrong...

If you want to buy it the pico-second it comes out, be my guest, but don't wonder why companies like IG contiune to treat their customers like crap when you let them get away with it...