20-02-2003 22:50									#1
	Do we really want Democracy? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Inspired by a Sava quote that 70% (or something) that support the war on Iraq are beer-swilling NASCAR fans (or something).

The question is do we really want democracy? And if we do, does it make sense to say that the people are wrong? After all, if we really believe in democracy, wouldn't we end up saying the people are right?

Of course, there is a high percentage of people who aren't as educated as, say, the people on this site (and yes, we all are educated). Do we want the same power given to these people as we want given to our scientists and doctors? By some peoples' comments (the people are sheep... morons... etc), it seems we may have some problems.

So what can we do? Is it simply like Churchill says? (Paraphrasing) Democracy is the worst form of government, except when compared to the rest of them?

	20-02-2003 22:56									#2
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It is odd how the very people who decry the "masses" just love showing how they have popular support in their attempt to stop the war. "Our protest was attended by millions!"

	20-02-2003 22:57									#3
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People=Democracy, and yes, we want it.
Che, David, and Sava can go to Cuba.

	20-02-2003 22:58									#4
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Heh, though I think both sides are guilty of it, John.

There is definte tension between the 'unwashed masses' and the 'intellectual elites' on both sides! The elites think they should run the country, but also believe the people should have a say. But when the people have their say, the elites say the people are easily manipulated. It's an interesting conundrum and circle.

	20-02-2003 23:04									#5
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quote: We, some of the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice for the more fortunate, insure domestic tranquility for the same people, provide for the common defense of our oil fields in IRAQ, promote the general welfare of the HMOs, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity (excluding some people), do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

	20-02-2003 23:05									#6
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Dictatorship = bad
Mob rule = also bad

So we try to strike a balance... and get a representative republic.

Politicians will forever claim that the people are with them, or if not, that the people have been manipulated (I think the political buzzterm is "the politics of fear" when you want to claim that your opponent is manipulative).

It beats the hell out of tyranny. To improve it, we need to work on education. The better educated the masses are, the better their decision making will be (that's the theory anyway, and I think it's sound).

-Arrian

	20-02-2003 23:10									#7
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quote: beer-swilling NASCAR fans

That's me!

First, I don't like how you seem to ellude that such people are uneducated. I can see how one might think that, as all we are watching are some very powerful cars going around a track. I like to call it a "left-turn competition". Yet, until one goes to a NASCAR race it can never be truly appreciated. I like it, and I am smart... At least I think I am.

Second, I agree with Churchill.

Third, if you want a democracy you have to listen to the voice of the meek, the small, and the insignificant. It is them who will inherit the world. It is them who make democracy worth fighting for. It is them who make the governemt as strong as it is. The real problem lies in those who think they are smart, those who hold power, and those who believe they know what is fair, righ, and democratic. I would rather have the bottom wrung dictating what to do for a time.

Hey, for once I agree with the French:

I have come to the conclusions that politics are too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.
--Charles De Gaulle

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.
--Charles De Gaulle

	20-02-2003 23:13									#8
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Is there such a thing as an enlightened despot ? If Saddam, instead of being a tyrant, actually cared for his people and instigated policies that profited his people, would that be enough to leave him be ? Would the revolution be worth the freedom ?

	20-02-2003 23:16									#9
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If. If a frog had wings, it wouldn't whomp it's ass every time it jumped.

	20-02-2003 23:19									#10
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I'm not a fan of American democracy. And I surely don't believe that important decisions should be left to the masses to make. American society is already elitest. The capitalists have great power to make things happen in their benefit. If we created an elitest society based on educated people (not money) this elite class would still act mainly in their own interest as opposed to everyone's interest, although they probably would do a better job. That could be worse. These people are smarter so they could exploit us better

	20-02-2003 23:20									#11
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Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

	20-02-2003 23:22									#12
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The best leader we can have is a leader like ourselves when playing civ. Someone whose goal is truly the well-being of the nation.

The only one who can do it is, of course, me.

	20-02-2003 23:23									#13
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Oh, man. Is that another veiled joke, Cal ?
Youe humor is as dry as the Texas sand, so it's hard to tell.

	20-02-2003 23:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

That depends on to whom he is benevolent.

	20-02-2003 23:25									#15
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true democracy assumes an intelligent populus.

when this nation was founded, it was set up in such a way that the educated could "abuse" the system, to ensure that intelligent decisions were made.

now, too many people have a voice.

it's an interesting balancing game.

	20-02-2003 23:28									#16
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In the latest poll, 57% of Amnericna support a war with a coolition of the willing:Such a majority is hardly cuase for celebrations of the type chickenhwaks make.

Also, saying you support somehting to a pollster is a passive act. Protesting requires you to get of your ass. As such, it is a signal of deeper sentiment. If so, prowar sentiment is slightly more widespread but also more passive, while anti-war sentiment, while less widespread, shows signs of being more heartfelt. And it is protestors who make policy, hence American gun policy and Abortion policy.

Those two things been said: the masses, whether they support or oppose war, are ignorant. They have neither the ime, nor the inclination, to delve deeply into any topic that may come up unless they had a prior personal interest. Mpost supporters of the war do it simply out of fear, without a worthiwhile reason, as do most opponets of war. If that sound elitist, good because I am one.

	20-02-2003 23:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Oh, man. Is that another veiled joke, Cal ? Youe humor is as dry as the Texas sand, so it's hard to tell.

No, I actually do think it's the best way.

	20-02-2003 23:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That depends on to whom he is benevolent.

His people.

	20-02-2003 23:54									#19
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Ok, tell me what system would you use instead of republic. A communist system maybe? No thanks. I prefer democracy with all its flaws.

	20-02-2003 23:57									#20
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Communism has only killed 100 million people, lets give it another chance.

	21-02-2003 00:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Communism has only killed 100 million people, lets give it another chance.

I imagine you pulled this figure out of your ass, but anyway it's the leaders who are responsible for the deaths. The same in capitalist countries. It's not the ideology.

	21-02-2003 00:08									#22
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It was written on a protestor's sign in SF last weekend.

I think it was intended as a joke.

	21-02-2003 00:29									#23
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I think the ideal system is a democracy with a strong enforced constitution that strictly limits what the government can do.

	21-02-2003 00:29									#24
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Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time.

	21-02-2003 00:29									#25
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Communism doesn't kill people, people kill people.

	21-02-2003 00:36									#26
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People don't kill communism, communism kills communism.

	21-02-2003 00:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand People=Democracy, and yes, we want it. Che, David, and Sava can go to Cuba.

Whew -- I'm glad gay Yankees are not on your exile list.


Anyway, in regards to the thread's question -- a democracy in which the mass supports their government based on official propaganda is definitely questionable.

But the ideal, which has never been accomplished, would be a democracy with stronger representation, by increasing the participation of voters. Sadly, voting participation is what -- less than 50% of those who are legally able to vote?

	21-02-2003 01:04									#28
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I swill beer and like NASCAR.

	21-02-2003 01:08									#29
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quote: As such, it is a signal of deeper sentiment. If so, prowar sentiment is slightly more widespread but also more passive, while anti-war sentiment, while less widespread, shows signs of being more heartfelt.

The reason is that protestors are going against the way the government is going. Pro-war people can BE more passive, because their way is winning right now.

quote: I swill beer and like NASCAR.

You know what I meant . And blame Sava .

I swill beer, and just started watching NASCAR (Hell, I watch basically all sports... well, except basketball ).

	21-02-2003 01:11									#30
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Currently, democracy is the most effective form of government.