21-02-2003 10:07									#1
	An issue regarding shoddy PBEM Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Unlike what the title is conveying, this is meant to be a constructive thread.

People who have been playing PBEM games have noticed some little bugs/inadequacies with the system. The main one is that you cannot see troop movement that do not occur on your turn. In other words, we cannot witness any unit movement other than our own. This is extremely frustrating when coupled with fog of war. This includes battles; it is not uncommon in PBEM to lose a unit, without knowing what hit you, how many times and from where.

Clearly this is a problem with the current PBEM system (SP and MP should not be this different). But we're going to have to play with it because the game has begun. My question is: should we do something about it? In a PBEM game I'm playing now, the players have all agreed to report to each other the outcomes of battles, as this information is readily available in SP or non-PBEM/Hotseat play. "Your Impi due north of the Wines tile was destroyed by my Horsemen, which has 1 HP left" is an example. This solution works quite well.

So, I suggest we propose this to all the other teams, attempting to adopt it as a convention. It requires a minimal amount of work (just email the necessary teams after each turn), and works to avoid a lot frustration. Trust me when I say that the game is strategically a lot different if you're blind except for during your own turn.

Thoughts, comments?


Dominae

	21-02-2003 10:22									#2
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I would support this if it is welcomed by the other teams. If they are anything other than enthusiastic, it could be problematic.

	21-02-2003 10:30									#3
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Perhaps our future Minister of Foreign Affairs could make this his or her first order of business (or at least high up on the to-do list)?


Dominae

	21-02-2003 10:41									#4
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I would recommend that. BetaHound would be ideal as well. He serves as our ambassador to the United Nations (the decision making body for game rules and standards).

The United nations forum can be found on 1BC.

	21-02-2003 12:38									#5
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I also think this would be a very good thing to suggest to the other teams. Hopefully they will be receptive to the idea.

	21-02-2003 12:43									#6
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I also think this would be a very good thing to suggest to the other teams. Hopefully they will be receptive to the idea.

I concur, though it will be a pain in the arse in a large scale war.

	21-02-2003 12:46									#7
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Also, make sure no one cheats and makes infinite armies.

	21-02-2003 13:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Also, make sure no one cheats and makes infinite armies.

Yeah ... that too

	22-02-2003 07:52									#9
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Yes, this would seem a fair idea- and a good way to put a FA minister to work

	22-02-2003 10:06									#10
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I await the consuls' direction to take this matter to the U.N. Just let me know.

	28-02-2003 06:56									#11
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I started a thread ( Intersite DG: Apolyton Team > UN Combat Notification Proposal) on the subject a day or two ago, but never got many posts. As I indicated, I'm happy to write up a proposal for the UN if I get some comments, but I didn't get much feedback. Assuming a proposal needs to be written anyway, I could just try and write one without any ideas, but it'd probably be pretty bad -- like I said, I've never even played a PBEM game, so I haven't had any experience with the issue (and what sort of information should be given to solve it). Obviously, if BetaHound is happy to write a proposal himself, I'm fine with that -- I just offered because Toghas asked for the job to be done, and I thought I'd repeat that offer here.

-- adaMada

	28-02-2003 07:39									#12
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Well I'm in no position of authority; but I'd say that a proposal such as this should be submitted directly to the Consuls though I don't think our Constitution requires it.

Side note:Maybe an amendment is needed to state that any power not already given by the Constitution is reserved for the Senators, unless amended by the Constitution and the 'power' specifically given to the Consul or the Ministers.

It would be basically a rule change; that is, it would be a request that it be put into the rules. I don't think would should leave it as an issur of honor on whether or not another team reports such things. I think it should be stated in the rules for our ISDG.

	28-02-2003 08:47									#13
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Dominae: it's not a bug though and it WON'T be fixed.
At least that was Firaxis's answer on the last (1.14) chat.

	28-02-2003 09:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by alva Dominae: it's not a bug though and it WON'T be fixed. At least that was Firaxis's answer on the last (1.14) chat.

Where can I go to see the chat log?

	28-02-2003 11:25									#15
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The chat was at CFC and IIRC the question was asked by Warpstorm


I'll see if I can find a link.

	28-02-2003 11:34									#16
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Found it

quote: [16:40] <@Chieftess> Will there ever be a play back mode for PBEM and HotSeat modes? It is annoying trying to figure out what happened since your last turn. [16:41] <+Patrick_Dawson_Firaxis> Warpstorm: No

Look for it on the first link in the middle of the page (I edited out some other stuff.

http://www.civfanatics.com/chat/chat3log_raw1.shtml

http://www.civfanatics.com/chat/index.shtml

btw: you were there

	28-02-2003 14:15									#17
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Hopefully the firaxis team will lose a few units this way get pissed off and code a playback system into the next patch

	28-02-2003 19:06									#18
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alva, thanks for the links...I just remembered I was there! I guess questions regarding PBEM were simply not important to me at the time...

I'm not sure I like Firaxis' answer: sure, they admit it is not a bug, but that does not mean it results in crappy gameplay. I would like to hear a reason (if they have one) if not implementing some sort of unit tracking scheme during opponent's turns, which IMO is badly needed.


Dominae