21-02-2003 16:36									#1
	Right of emigration? Inflate your Upload Space

After the first few days I decided, that Apolytonia may be not the country I want to live in this game. I would like to stay in the game though, because it's going to be a fascinating experience. Perhaps as a member of another team. I haven't asked anyone yet and am not sure at all if they would take me, they could see something like a spy in me. In this case, I would just stay a lurker here. But if it is possible, I would like to try it. I am aware, that this is problematic, because I have already knowledge about the Apolytonian start position and several initial plans. I ask the government politely, to clear through the Apolytonian UN ambassador the following questions:

1 - Do citizens have the right of emigration, i.e. a team change?
2 - If yes, under what conditions?

So far, this are pure theoretical questions. It is not meant as a critic towards anyone, and I would appreciate not to see any discussions about the reasons and moralic aspects of a team change. Please just try to discuss the possibility and conditions.

	21-02-2003 16:52									#2
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Are you thinking you might want to join Borc's team?

	21-02-2003 17:00									#3
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As I said, I have no concrete plans, but Borc's team would naturally be among the teams I ask.

	21-02-2003 17:21									#4
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Has anything happened here to make you feel like you want to leave?
Or do you just feel like playing a game with a different set of people for once?

	21-02-2003 17:22									#5
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Isn't that "discussing the reasons"?

	21-02-2003 17:45									#6
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Possibility:
Yes, of course. I trust you. But this is an exception.
Conditions:
Don't tell nothing to your new team mates that they don't know yet... I mean, no info about our start or tech research, etc.
After some time, all this will be known (after tech deals, trading maps, and so) and the things will be normalized to you, as a full member of other team.

Later in the game, a thing like that will be impossible, I think, but for now we can agree. This decision must be fast.

Just my two cents. I don't have any official position in this team...

About the reasons... maybe another thread for discussion? Just kidding...

	21-02-2003 18:02									#7
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Thinking this over a bit, I would also agree to let you join another team this early. I trust you to keep our secrets secret. But time would be of crucial importance - you would have to leave ASAP.

Sorry to see you wishing to leave. Hope you did not misunderstand what I said in the other thread.

	21-02-2003 18:11									#8
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If the rest of the consuls agree too (let's wait for their decision) and there are no other objections, I would propose the following way:

- Since I want to stay in the game by all means, I would write my application to the team(s) of my choice.
- During this time, you suspend my authorization to enter the team forum.
- If the other team approves me, I will leave the civgroup.
- If within a reasonable time I won't get into another team (which may happen, because they don't know me), I will ask to be reauthorized. In this case, I won't take any influence on the game, I will just lurk.

Agreed?

	21-02-2003 22:04									#9
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1. What about your ability to profile members of Apolyton. I realize that this is based on knowledge you had before the start of the game, but the Apolyton team would still be negatively effected by this leak of "personality intelligence". I'm not trying to imply that you should hold back this info., but I'd like to hear your stance.

2. Although I certainly trust you and your intentions, how will this affect later decision about emigration? Could this lead to a policy that fails to promote "keeping honest people honest".

3. I understand why you don't want to discuss why you would like to switch teams, but don't you feel that this might be a reasonable request? I for one would feel much more uncertain about people switching teams for "no stated reason", than for a particular reason (yes, one could simply lie, but I'm still thinking in terms of "keeping honest people honest").

Again I certainly trust you, I would just like to see this fully discussed.

Randolph

	21-02-2003 22:31									#10
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Randolph:

1. Why this is a problem, is beyond me. Apolyton is an open site, and everyone can lurk here without being registered. Some of our genuine members (Spiffor, for instance) are already in other teams. Why not me? On the other hand, many members of other teams have second accounts on Apolyton, for instance Mazarin of ND (there known as Richelieu).

2. This is not my problem, as I won't see these discussions. Just make laws about emigration/immigration.

3. I do not wish to discuss this matter here. I have met my decision.

	21-02-2003 22:55									#11
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Sir Ralph,

I do not intend to discuss your reasons, but I want to make sure that you do not underestimate one point : whatever are the institutions of a community, they are only as good or as bad as people are. And this team is made of the cream of the demogame. I am sure that we will find a way to make everything efficient and democratic.

I remember how you contributed in the beginning of the demogame, and I cant imagine that we will let you leave YOUR team without even trying to make you more comfortable here, knowing that we are in a competition where we need litterally all the talents.

Unless your reasons are personal (and in that case, forget the above), I ask you to think again to the friends known and unknown that you will let here, and to Apolyton.

	21-02-2003 23:20									#12
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Yep, Sir Ralph, stick around a bit and things will get better. I cannot assure you this, but I know we'll need you. You would make an excellent Consul (if only you and nye/vondrack could stop fighting!).

Anyway, if you go to another team, I'll have the pleasure of crushing you slowly once again...


Dominae

	21-02-2003 23:37									#13
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Thanks guys for your kind words . And be assured, that I leave the team without hard feelings.

DAVOUT: You won't need my knowledge. With Aeson, nbarclay, Dominae, Theseus and all the other Strategy forum regulars here you have an excellent staff, the best you can get! In fact, that are the people I have learned from. In the SP Demogame I was the only from this bunch hanging around (well, at least in the early game, when I was needed most), here you have the whole Apolytinian University staff. Why bother for Luke if you can have Yoda and Obiwan?

Dominae: You'll crush me in neither game, rest assured

	21-02-2003 23:49									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh and btw, I am still missing the approval from notyoueither and Ninot. Please?

	21-02-2003 23:50									#15
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Where is Aeson? We should consider appointing him to Minister of something...I have a feeling he's as good with MP as with SP.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 23:59									#16
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Aeson said, he prefers to be a mere citizen.

	22-02-2003 01:07									#17
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I wasn;t sure what the best thread to write this in would be... so I'll do it here:

Can we all slow down a bit?

I mean, c'mon, we are:

* Forming and staffing a government
* Dealing with a non-obvious start position
* Bringing together players from different 'poly walks of life, with different play styles, communication styles, 'friends,' PTW DG teams, etc.
* Suffering from the lack of sufficient publicity and the move to a private forum

It's OK for things to be a little discombobulated... nothing disastrous has happened, luckily.

Gimme a little time to come up with some suggestions.

	22-02-2003 03:25									#18
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Sir Ralph can move on if he so chooses......completely out of the game.

For his claim to not divulge any information already obtained in this forum as far as start location and more importantly STRATEGY; Well, he may not divulge this info directly to another team or it's memebers but he may, even unknowingly provide advice to another team based upon his foreknowledge. He cannot, no matter how hard he tries, 'forget' what he has learned here.

He would purposely have to provide advice to another team that contradicted his knowledge that he gained in this forum so as to appear non-biased.

I am of the mindset to not allow ANY citizen transfers since each citizen has the information equal to that of our Consuls and everyone else in the forum.

While I believe your intent, Sir Ralph, to behave in a matter befitting honor and truth, I do not believe that you can properly dispense advice to another team without in some way compromising what you have learned in this forum. WE cannot expect you to 'unlearn' things.

	22-02-2003 03:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Sir Ralph can move on if he so chooses......completely out of the game.

Now that's not very nice, is it?

It's a little confusing since Ralph won't discuss his reasons with us, but nevertheless I think he should be free to join another team.

To deny him this simple thing at such an early stage of the game would be taking this whole game a little too seriously IMHO.

	22-02-2003 03:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Now that's not very nice, is it?

I'm sorry, I didn't think that my comment would come off as 'not nice'; Sir Ralph made it clear that he wants to leave and that he'd like to join another group. All I'm saying is that I don't believe he has the right to join another group and that if you wants to leave the Apolyton team, then he needs to leave the game completely for things to be right.

Sorry if I offended you Sir Ralph, for I have respect for many of your writings about the games of Civilization.

	22-02-2003 05:48									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is probably the my last post in this forum, as I will leave the civgroup after I posted it. I won't be able to read any response, so if somebode feels the urge to answer something, PM me.

I hereby declare, that I will by no means reveal any information I saw in this forum to any other team. This includes map information as well as strategic approaches. The strategies I will recommend a possible other team will be the genuine product of my knowledge about the game and not mirror in any way, what I saw in this forum and is not common knowledge.

Theseus, a couple of words to you personally, bud... Man, you are making it hard to leave! But I guess I can't go back now. My bad. I have explained my situation in a PM. Don't take it personal, please, after all it's only a game. It is designed to create fun. So let's have it, even though we're not in the same team for this one. You will continue the read my boring comments in the GS private forum. And hey, remember, I will always be your friend.

Last words to everyone: I am leaving this team without hard feelings and hope, nobody carries hard feelings towards me.

	22-02-2003 05:59									#22
	Remove this text

Like I said before, Sir Ralph CANNOT un-learn what he has learned in this forum. I really believe that Sir Ralph would try to contain his knowledge about Apolyton's situation, but I belive that somehow (the mind works in curious ways) some of the learned information will be used to formulate startegies to work against us.

If I told everyone to NOT think about Pink Elephants.....there is no one that could strike that from their immediate memory. I hope he is not allowed to join another team. He should have thought about perhaps being on another team BEFORE he actually joined the Apolyton team.

I believe that NO Team jumping should be allowed now or ever.

	22-02-2003 06:18									#23
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Bummer.

bigfree1, SR is a really really honorable guy. He will err on the side of NOT sharing any info that could be detrimental to Apolyton. My guess is he'll take a semi-lurking role with the German team, just to make sure he doesn;t cross any lines.

What he will feel comfortable discussing, of course, is his considerable game knowledge.

He believes in a balanced game... enough military to handle any surprises, and no big gambles for success.

He knows how to fight... early!

He and I are the two biggest proponents of this Ralphing concept... he just might convince the Germans to do this modified ICS build early on. Dangerous.

I guess one of the good things is that we now have someone with a very close relationship on the German team. Should be useful.

Still, a bummer, for me at least.

	22-02-2003 06:26									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Still, a bummer, for me at least.

I agree very much.

	22-02-2003 06:47									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus He and I are the two biggest proponents of this Ralphing concept... he just might convince the Germans to do this modified ICS build early on.

This may be good for us if ralphing turns out to be bogus (...I'll never quit!).


Dominae

	22-02-2003 07:02									#26
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Heathen.

How 'bout a proper "sorry to see him go" for SR?

	22-02-2003 07:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus How 'bout a proper "sorry to see him go" for SR?

Page up in this thread. I was one of the first to express my concern and support (in a friendly banter sort of way...you see, my Impi hordes are trying to crush him in a PBEM game). I'm sure he knows I regret he's gone.


Dominae

	22-02-2003 08:15									#28
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PM'd to SR:

Sorry to see you leave Sir Ralph - I have enjoyed learning from many 'Poly veterans in recent months, and was looking forward to learning from all of the Strat forum gurus in this game too - like yourself.

Our Consuls should have simply declared that emigration was not allowed!

	22-02-2003 09:12									#29
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This is a very sad thing thing indeed

Although Bigfree does have a point, we can hardly forbid anyone from doing so. I for one say we grant SR what he wants and move on.

BTW: Us knowing that SR knows what we know what he knows can be turned into an advantage aswell

	22-02-2003 11:33									#30
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Please continue discussion in this thread.
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=78029