22-02-2003 11:28									#1
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I feel a new thread is needed for this. Discussions from the other thread can continue here.
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=77942

I have asked vondrack and Ninot, as well as BetaHound if we should NOT stand in the way of Sir Ralph joining another team. They all agree that we should not stand in his way. I have reserved my opinion, because I regard Sir Ralph as a friend and as such, it would be improper of me to campaign either way on this issue. That is why I sought BetaHound's opinion as being one of the founders of this game.

I also do not feel that this issue is one that should be decided by the Consuls alone. Therefore I begin this thread for everyone to comment. Not to vote in a blind poll, but to say yea or nay and why we should or should not protest Sir Ralph joining another team.

As an additional bit of information, it is the German team that he would join.

Finally, according to BetaHound, there is no clear cut rule in this game as of yet regarding players changing teams. Therefore, should the consensus in this thread be that we do not agree with Sir Ralph joining another team, then we will have to raise it as a new issue at the UN at 1BC.

The floor is yours.

	22-02-2003 11:35									#2
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He has the right, of course... and he's a person of great character. We all trust him, no problems with our "secrets".

It's just sad for our team...

	22-02-2003 11:36									#3
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Entirely under the consideration that he is going to leave and there is no changing that fact... unfortunately the damage is done, and the knowledge is in his head. He knows where we are, what we're researching, and other similar vital information. Even if he pursues an inactive role in another team, his views will be - uncontrollably - biased by default, and he will subconsciously make certain conclusions based upon the knowledge he has.

Were it not for this, then I would have no qualms with his departure. I do, however, hold respect for his character, his decision, and that he will do all he can to make this game fair and enjoyable.

For these reasons, I cannot commit to one decision or another and must remain undecided on this issue.

	22-02-2003 11:39									#4
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I trust him not to use his knowledge to put us at a disadvantage early on. In 40 turns or so this will all seem irreleveant, as the game will have progressed considerably.

Letting him go is the right thing to do. This is all for fun, and he knows where's he'll be happiest.


Dominae

	22-02-2003 11:46									#5
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Trip, you have a point. No matter what he does, he's human, not an AI... He can't "forget".
But... this is a game of honor and ability, played only by Humans. I'm sure he will pursue a "no role" until our team meet his team. Then, the only secret he has will be useless. Our strategies will be very different at that point.

Edit: crosspost, Dominae.

	22-02-2003 19:57									#6
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As nye has stated, I am on-side with this. I wish Sir Ralph all the best. And I can't see it affecting our situation at all.

However - in the interests of maintaining excellent out-of-game relationships with the other sites - and given that I was a major proponent of the 'fairness' and 'no-out-of-game-spying' rules which now govern the game - I believe we should publicly declare this matter to the other teams. I don't want them to think it is some conspiracy by two teams to enhance their chances of meeting earlier in the game. And I don't want them to find out later via some other means. They should find out from us, and soon.

	22-02-2003 20:03									#7
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound I believe we should publicly declare this matter to the other teams. I don't want them to think it is some conspiracy by two teams to enhance their chances of meeting earlier in the game. And I don't want them to find out later via some other means. They should find out from us, and soon.

Excellent point.

	22-02-2003 20:47									#8
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Ultimately the possible impact will be afected by where the other team is located. If they are on anoher continent, the impact will be minimal. But if they are the closest team to us, how do we know he wont get them to change their focus to an early rush given that he knows our early game tactics. We cant be positive that he wont attempt to use info gained from here to his new teams benefit, though I do have enough trust in his that he wont.

	22-02-2003 21:29									#9
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Regardless of what SirRalph knows, we cant stand in his way.

If we do, his heart isnt really with this team, so hes more likely to give away our info if we are making things difficult to him.

In this case, we need to make SirRalph as happy as possible, so that he doesnt decide to do us any evil actions.

Of course, it sucks that he knows things, but if we fight his decision or not, we can't change what he wants. As long as he wants to leave, its better we keep him happy as he does so.

	22-02-2003 21:34									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound ................ I believe we should publicly declare this matter to the other teams. ................

Agreed.

	22-02-2003 22:05									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot If we do, his heart isnt really with this team, so hes more likely to give away our info if we are making things difficult to him. In this case, we need to make SirRalph as happy as possible, so that he doesnt decide to do us any evil actions. Of course, it sucks that he knows things, but if we fight his decision or not, we can't change what he wants. As long as he wants to leave, its better we keep him happy as he does so.

Ninot,

You do not realize that what you said is really insulting. The only valid reason we have to release Sir Ralph is because we trust him. Otherwise we must oppose and ban him if he misbehaves.

	22-02-2003 22:15									#12
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Davout, you miss my point

if we trust him or not.... we HAVE to release him.

im not saying we distrust him

but im saying if we didnt, we'd still have to let him go.

lol, and I truly miss where i insulted anyone

	22-02-2003 22:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot if we trust him or not.... we HAVE to release him.

I really disagree. It would result in that : whether you trust or not in a member does not make any difference. This is surprising since membership is granted on the basis of trust.

The more you distrust somebody, the more he can harm you, the more you are willing to release him, ... and let him go in an other team. Strange ...

	22-02-2003 23:12									#14
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We can't force him to stay here. He's already said that he's made his last post in this forum. Whether or not he remains in the civgroup doesn't change anything.

	22-02-2003 23:27									#15
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He left the Civ Group shortly after his last post.

	23-02-2003 00:39									#16
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I agree with Trip. We cannot force him to stay if he doesn't want to, but his knowledge will bias his point of view even if he tries to avoid it.

Said that, the best thing to do is let him go and inmediately tell all the other teams as BetaHound sugested so they don't suspect strange things.

And... just a suggestion, but I wouldn't accept anyone from the other teams in Apolyton, unless they come from a defeated team.

	23-02-2003 00:59									#17
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quote: [SIZE=1] And... just a suggestion, but I wouldn't accept anyone from the other teams in Apolyton, unless they come from a defeated team.

Agreed.

	23-02-2003 01:06									#18
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Same here. I agree with oliverfa.

	23-02-2003 01:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither He left the Civ Group shortly after his last post.

Then why are we still having this debate?

	23-02-2003 01:21									#20
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Because people will discuss it anyways, and it's best to have it under control in one thread.

	23-02-2003 01:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Then why are we still having this debate?

To determine whether we, as a team, protest his joining another team.

It is good this issue came up now, since it appears there is no rule in this game against changing teams. Can you imagine the impact later on?

I hope that this issue is fully addressed at the UN whether or not we decide to protest the switching of teams in this case.

	23-02-2003 03:05									#22
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I don't care about protest one way or the other. What I care about is the security of our diplomacy. Whether Sir Ralph would intend it or not (and I believe that he wouldn't, he's a good guy), the fact that he would have access to our boards would of necessity mean that he has access to internal discussion regarding our relationships with other teams. Should the situation ever evolve to a point where we are in anything less than spectacular relations with the German team, it is forseeable that this could result in even accidental transmission of knowledge or attitudes from one team to the other that otherwise would not be known.

As such, there is no question to me that someone cannot be allowed to have access to more than one private forum where foreign policy matters will be discussed - period.

Sir Ralph's a good player and I hate to lose him, but that really is where we have to draw the line.

	23-02-2003 03:18									#23
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He no longer has access to this forum, Arnelos.

	23-02-2003 03:28									#24
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I agree with Arnelos because I don’t know Sir Ralph at all. Myself I think that if somebody wants to join a team, he should find out before he joins whether the team has anything he takes exception to, such as a style of government he doesn’t like or people in a team he doesn’t get along with, especially if things like passwords are involved.

If it were up to me I would certainly be willing to grant an exception in this case because everybody here speaks highly of him and he is leaving after the first turn, so not too much harm will be done, but I think it will be much fairer to the other teams not to allow him to join another team and to have no exceptions. If I were on another team, I would not be happy that the German team gets a defector but nobody else can.

Being a lurker, the thing I couldn’t understand was why he didn’t stay and try to lobby for a change in the government structure, especially as it looked to me as if he has lots of friends here, and surely the opportunity to play with friends is more important than a pretend governmental system?

But I’m just a lurker, so I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Last edited by pikesfan on 23-02-2003 at 03:36

	23-02-2003 03:28									#25
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I made my case against Sir Ralph joining another team here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=77942

I do not wish to re-hash it here agian. I do not understand why a new thread was needed.

	23-02-2003 04:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan Being a lurker, the thing I couldn’t understand was why he didn’t stay and try to lobby for a change in the government structure, especially as it looked to me as if he has lots of friends here, and surely the opportunity to play with friends is more important than a pretend governmental system? But I’m just a lurker, so I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Yes, you do.

	23-02-2003 08:26									#27
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We should release Sir Ralph. And we should allow him to join the German Team. But having said that,

1. There should be some kind of "honorable" agreement between all the participating teams, such that there should be a "short ban" for players moving from one team to another.
For example, players are only allowed to join other teams 3 weeks after leaving.

2. We should inform other teams of players movement.

	23-02-2003 09:34									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I really disagree. It would result in that : whether you trust or not in a member does not make any difference. This is surprising since membership is granted on the basis of trust. The more you distrust somebody, the more he can harm you, the more you are willing to release him, ... and let him go in an other team. Strange ...

Davout, whatever point your trying to make is not really getting to me.

If we distrusted SirRalph, it would be in our opinion that he could harm us. If at that point we chose to protest his actions, it would only antagonize him, and perhaps drive him into doing the very things we fear. If we didnt chose to protest, the same might happen, but atleast we never look like villains trying to stop a players freedoms in the first place.

If we didnt distrust SirRalph, then we send him on his way with luck (as I hope we're doing, hes a good guy)

	23-02-2003 12:17									#29
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Enough.

I vouch for him.

That said, it's easier in that it was done on the first turn.

Going forward, however, I very much agree that this is a UN-level issue going forward. Who is our ambassador to the UN (BH?), and what do we want to say about this to the other teams?

	23-02-2003 13:29									#30
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As there does not seem to be a majority for protesting, I will ask BetaHound to present the situation to the UN and inform tham that Apolyton does not protest the change.

I will also ask him to request that a rule be put in place for future cases that will make it clear cut that changing teams will not be allowed.