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Abdul-Aziz
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Land of Eternal Truth
Feb 2003
time: 08:26
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And you would like such genocide, wouldn't you? BTW, about poems, I still don't understand you...
As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC. Remember that one where father with child were killed? Each day about 3-5 Palestinians dies in unclear circumstances, like going in streets, etc. In that Gaza siege not long ago, many innocents also died.
Oh, so you are speaking about Jewish refugees? Well, if so than I have to say that if not these refugees there wouldn't be Israel at all. Israel itself was created as refuge for those people. While other Arab states have their own culture and traditions, etc. BTW, and the main thing, why should Palestinians go elsewhere if they had homes and territory in they home until Jews came? Why they should go to other Arab states and give their lands to Jews? Jews already kicked them out of certain lands to West Bank and Gaza, now they annexed them also. Who guarantees that they won't annex new lands Palestinians would go to also? They can't retreat anymore, they already retreated to make place for Jews. Now Jews has their state, thus allow Palestinians to have it also.
Those terrorism threats is very, very unclear issue. I doubt there are so many of them for instance, and if there are, moast of them couldn't be completed anyway. The only way for Israelis to get permanent solution to this problem is to give independence to Palestine.
As for checkpoints, as official statistics shows, over 80 Palestinians died because of ambulances stops at these checkpoints, not to mention that they disallows people to get to work on time, etc.
As for Jenin, yet again your show how bigot you are by saying how your army should blow up everything around. As for your statistics, btw, I have to say that if 25 Palestinians would blow up themselves in different places of Tel Aviv anf kill 52 Jews (many of who would be civilians, others army, police, Mossad, etc.) you would call it a horrible terror act, not "saving enemy lives".
No, but settlers truly attacks Palestinian villages. It is proven. BTW, settling annexed territories is illegal (UN).
As for Israelis destroying Palestinain homes, well do I seriously need to prove it? Turn on TV, BTW, even Israel itself agrees that they are doing this as collective punishment. I am not sure, probably media in Israel is censored or something like that, cause how could you don't know this otherwise?
To others:
I am not Kirgyz, I am Azeri. Azerbaijan is in Caucassus, not Central Asia by the way. From Baku to Bishkek (Kirgyz capital) the distance is like from Denver to New York or from Madrid to Warshaw.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:26
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I must get some sleep, so it's all very brief.
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Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
And you would like such genocide, wouldn't you? |
On what do you base this statement?
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BTW, about poems, I still don't understand you... |
You presented a carefully selected groups of poems, so there is no surprise all of them are peaceful. What I was interested in is the "raw material".
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As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC. |
Man bites dog. BBC wont show you good treatment because it's not interesting.
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Remember that one where father with child were killed? |
No.
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Each day about 3-5 Palestinians dies in unclear circumstances, like going in streets, etc. |
The numbers dont add up. 3-5 dead Pals per day means more than 4000 dead in total. The correct figure is twice as small.
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In that Gaza siege not long ago, many innocents also died. |
Being around armed gunmen firing on Israeli forces is not healthy. One would think that after 2.5 years the Pals would've figured that out.
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Oh, so you are speaking about Jewish refugees? Well, if so than I have to say that if not these refugees there wouldn't be Israel at all. Israel itself was created as refuge for those people. |
Correct but irrelevant. Israel still had to invest enourmous efforts to integrate them.
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While other Arab states have their own culture and traditions, etc. |
There was a huge difference in cultures when refugees poured to Israel. The two major Jewish "centers" in Europe and the Arab World were ceparated for centuries.
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BTW, and the main thing, why should Palestinians go elsewhere if they had homes and territory in they home until Jews came? Why they should go to other Arab states and give their lands to Jews? |
Ok, let's assume you're right. The evil Jews kicked them out and wont let them back in. So you let them rot in refugee camps for 5 decades, or help them with all the means you have? The Arab world chose the former.
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Jews already kicked them out of certain lands to West Bank and Gaza, now they annexed them also. |
False.
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Who guarantees that they won't annex new lands Palestinians would go to also? |
Past experience. Israel can annex the territories tommorow and kick out the Pals. It could since 1956, when our military power began to grow beyonf the combined power of the Arab states. Yet we dont do it. Why? Because we believe it will be immoral. Here's your guarantee.
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They can't retreat anymore, they already retreated to make place for Jews. Now Jews has their state, thus allow Palestinians to have it also. |
I agree. But indisrcimenently blowing up civilians is not going to convice Israel.
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Those terrorism threats is very, very unclear issue. |
When a Pal informant inside the Hamas reports that they have a car bomb en route to Natania, it's very clear.
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I doubt there are so many of them for instance, |
It's a fact.
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and if there are, moast of them couldn't be completed anyway. |
Thanks to the IDF.
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The only way for Israelis to get permanent solution to this problem is to give independence to Palestine. |
Why dont you ask the Hamas/IJ/PFLP/DFLP/Hezbolla/Al Quaeda if this is what makes them stop? I have the feeling they will dissagree.
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As for checkpoints, as official statistics shows, over 80 Palestinians died because of ambulances stops at these checkpoints, not to mention that they disallows people to get to work on time, etc. |
Unfortunate, but if this is what it takes to stop that car bomb to Netanya...
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As for Jenin, yet again your show how bigot you are by saying how your army should blow up everything around. |
I never said that.
I said that we could but we havent. The logical conclusion is that we dont want to harm civilians, when possible.
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As for your statistics, btw, I have to say that if 25 Palestinians would blow up themselves in different places of Tel Aviv anf kill 52 Jews (many of who would be civilians, others army, police, Mossad, etc.) |
Then they will blow up in Tel Aviv with the intention to kill as many as possible, not to find explosives labs and confiscate weapons. That's where the difference lies.
Our goal is to harm terrorists and prevent terror. Civilians get killed because the terrorists are among them but we do all we can to avoid that.
The Pals goal is to kill as many as possible, and they do everything to accomplish it.
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you would call it a horrible terror act, not "saving enemy lives". |
Because of the goal of the attack will be to kill as many as possible.
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No, but settlers truly attacks Palestinian villages. It is proven. |
I know. But it doesnt mean a thing about the settlers population as a whole.
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BTW, settling annexed territories is illegal (UN). |
Blowing up in buses is also illegal, I dont see you complaining.
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As for Israelis destroying Palestinain homes, well do I seriously need to prove it? Turn on TV, BTW, even Israel itself agrees that they are doing this as collective punishment. I am not sure, probably media in Israel is censored or something like that, cause how could you don't know this otherwise? |
Yet again, you should reread what I wrote.
I didnt ask you to prove that we destroy homes, but to prove that it's a war crime.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC. Remember that one where father with child were killed? |
Was this the shooting that took place between a gunbattle between the Israeli army and Palestinian radicals, where an investigation by a german news agency concluded that the boy was killed by the Palestinian gunmen?
Last edited by Edan on 24-02-2003 at 01:18
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:26
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there's nothing absolute aobut that.
the fact remains that the kid was killed during a massive exchange of fire between 1 israeli position, and some 4 palestinian positions.
the german tv show casts serious doubt on the popular version saying that israeli soldiers are likely to have been responsible for the boy's death.
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Although it happened almost a year and a half ago, who can forget twelve-year-old Muhammad al-Dura dying in his father's arms at Netzarim Crossing in the Gaza Strip, a victim of routine and intentional Israeli brutality. At least that's how French television depicted it in a video clip replayed countless times the world over. The image quickly attained iconic status, and Muhammad became the poster child for the second Palestinian intifada. (In its own narration of the clip, the Palestinian Authority spoke of the "beauty of the martyr," whose blood flows "like a waterfall.") But now a March 17 documentary aired by Germany's ARD television suggests something extraordinary: that Muhammad was killed not by Israeli soldiers, but by Palestinian gunmen, perhaps deliberately to create precisely such a photogenic martyr. The French footage, it turns out, was heavily edited--from six minutes to 50 seconds--and the French won't let anyone see the tape they didn't air. What's more, the Palestinian Authority didn't allow an autopsy on the boy and never released the bullet that killed him for outside scrutiny. ARD has done its own forensic investigation, however, and concluded that the shot that entered Muhammad's crouching body could not have come from the location where Israeli soldiers were positioned. ARD's report has been covered extensively in the German press (Die Welt headlined its article, "RICOCHETING TRUTH"). As of this writing, however, no major American newspaper or TV network--including the many that ran the original footage of Muhammad's death--has mentioned it.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:26
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quote:
(google translation of article on die-welt)
The truth as transverse racquets
A film examines the death of the twelve-year-old boy Muhammad al-Dura - with surprising results
Of Igal Avidan
At the beginning of the al-Aksa-Intifada in September 2000 Muhammads last picture went through the world: The boy, who died before current camera, in the arm of the father. Still on the same day thousands of Palestinians celebrated the boy as "martyrs for Jerusalem". neither Mohammad nor its father Jamal would have seen it to the asseverations of the Israeli soldiers and hardly believed therefore also not shot, someone. Mohammad was the only Palestinian victim, that got a face even in the Israeli media - newspapers sent reporters to the wounded father and criticized the Israeli commission of inquiry.
Esther Shapira, authoress of the hessian broadcast, had its doubts: "because I know Israeli soldiers well, fell it me very heavily to present to me that they shoot deliberately and cold-bloodedly a child." It wanted the question "who shot Muhammad al-Dura " to answer and the background of the most famous Intifada picture to analyze. A mission with open exit. It would have turned its film (pool of broadcasting corporations, Monday, 18.3rd, 21,45 o'clock) also if its search had disproved their own conception.
Two days after the outbreak of the Palestinian rebellion in the west bank come to father and son into the Nezarim crossing, at which for hours Palestinian and Israeli snipers a fire fight supply themselves. In the protection of a jeep all unarmed Palestinians flee: Only the al-Dura s remains hidden behind a waste water pipe. the bloody drama, the Palestinian France2-Kameramann Talal takes 45 minutes abu Rachma notes it. Six minutes filmmaterial it overacts in the Jerusalemer studio, but korrespondent Charles Enderlein wants to have received only 50 seconds of it and send. The original material remains under catch. Enderlein threatens in the film to sue everyone which accuses manipulation to him.
The whole truth cannot show also Shapira. Because Israel tore all buildings off after one week around the crossing. The Palestinians left neither too nor examined them the fragments in Jamals body or the holes at the wall behind the death place to a Autopsie. Shapira shows the results of an investigation of the Israeli army, which results in that the deadly shots could not come from their own rifle.
More importantly than Shapiras minutioese reconstruction of the tragedy is however their exposing the propaganda machinery, which operates Arafats authority with the dead child. The palaestinsische television turned a video tie-clip on behalf of the education Ministry, in which any Israeli sniper is explained as a murderer al-Dura s. Director Moneer al Rayyes explains: "it concerns an artistic representation in the context of the truth identification." In the off of the video tie-clip a moderator of the beauty of the martyr schwaermt, from whose body the blood out-squirts "like a wasserfall". ", asks al-Dura in this film follows me ", and the spectator asks itself, how many Palestinian children were driven by these propaganda pictures into death.
The Israeli army tried to prevent Shapiras film so that the tragic pictures of the dying boy would not flicker again in the living rooms. According to army speaker Olivier Rabinovitch would not have their in relation to explanations this pictures a chance. "he said to me that the German viewers mean film from the front in here for a reason would reject: Shapira is nevertheless a Jewish name."
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:26
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quote:
(another die-welt article about the issue)
"do not be afraid you of death - Maertyrertum is sweet"
Instigated, sacrificed and in death to martyrs representative - who number of the children killed in the Middle East conflict rises
Of Miriam Hollstein and Michael Anthony
The small is ten years old only and wants to become, what its father is: a martyr. 15,000 humans urge itself in the center of Nablus, in order to carry Nurs father Saleh Darwazeh to grave. The Hamas leader had died on Tuesday with a purposeful Israeli missile attack. "father, I takes no parting from you, because I am proud on you and believe firmly in it, you soon to see again", says the Palestinian boy into a microphone. Later it someone presses a rifle into the hand. Trauern on Palestinian.
137 Palestinian children and young person died - according to data of Palestinian organizations - since outbreak of the new Intifada in September 2000. Most died when stone throwing goaded on against the Israeli army, from hate propaganda and the feeling of suppression for many years. They died a double death: the actual as well as propaganda death - as icon of instigated quantities and in medial spread martyr pictures.
"today that obtains the strategically largest advantage", said the Israeli minister of foreign affairs Schimon Peres, "with dramatic pictures the most powerful shock waves and the most violent indignation to obtain can." Peres said this after the death of the 12-jaehrigen Mohammed Jammal al-Dura in past September. The pictures of a French television team, which showed, how boy with its father turned out for the Palestinian in a fire fight between extremists and Israeli soldiers and thereby was shot, released world-wide embarrassment. Today Gaza is paved with posters of Mohammed.
"children are systematically used by the Palestinian propaganda machine", confirmed also Itamar Markus, director of the Israeli "Palestinian Media Watch of institutes". Markus drives each morning into its office fully plugged with video tape recordings to Jersualem, in order to note Palestinian television broadcasts. Since beginning of the Intifada the video recorders run continuously. One of the most frequent motives: the 12-jaehrige Mohammed from Netzarim. Without TV commercials Mohammeds contemporary call to add much to it, it it. "in the paradies", quaeckt a kitschige child's voice from the off follows me. The picture of Mohammed is faded in, the camera moves into a red evening sky.
Five to sieved such tie-clips run daily. In another a Palestinian singer sings: "the time for toys is past." The camera points to it black-and-white pictures of children, who let dolls and spielzeugautos fall, to stones seize and on Israeli army posts approach. Then the pictures become again multicolored, and the singer whispers encouraging: "do not be afraid you of death, Maertyrertum is sweet."
"with children emotions can Markus be schueren best", white. In the meantime also the Fanatiker on the opposite side understood that. After the murder at that ten months old settler baby Shalhevet passport in Hebron by Palestinian snipers retarded parents the funeral and required of the Israeli army the occupation of the Palestinian quarter of Hebron. In the by the majority per-Palestinian adjusted France settler sympathizers in the Jewish quarter of of Paris photos of Shalhevet hung up. Under the title "shocking pictures of the Arab hate" show InterNet sides of pictures of the blood-flooded baby and call with slogans like "Shalhevets blood cry out to Scharon" for harder procedure against the Palestinians.
But again and again extract themselves member of victims courageously from the cycle of the force. One of the most prominent examples is the orthodoxe Jew Yitzhak Frankenthal. When 1994 his 19-jaehriger Sohn Arik were murdered with the Trampen of three Hamas Aktivisten, the businessman created the "Parents ' Circle", a group mourning that parents, to the Frankenthal concerning both sides invited. Today 190 Israeli and 140 Palestinian relatives of victims belong to the group. Even if it became more difficult, the circle meets regularly. With its fellow combatants Frankenthal goes into schools, speaks of his son and against the hate. Shortly its organization - supports from European and American funds - wants to start a large campaign in the Israeli and Palestinian media. The picture of Shalhevet is to stand beside that the small Diya. The three months old Palestinian baby at the end of of July had been killed by Jewish extremists. "we make no one-sided debt assignments, but try, to educate both societies to the peace", say Frankenthal. All would have to understand, so Frankenthal that the peace had its price: political concessions on both sides.
He speaks with the authority of that, which already paid the highest price. "the question is not whether it will give peace", says Frankenthal, "the question is: like many of our children must still die up to then?"
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:26
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Interesting (though poorly translated ) article about bias in the media.
quote:
Can these pictures lie?
The war in the Near East is led also in the heads of the watching world. For example with the photo of the shot Palestinian boy - who shot however Muhammad aluminium-Dura really?
Of Norbert Jessen
Muhammad aluminium-Dura was twelve, when he died. If a child dies, that is always tragic. But Muhammad aluminium-Dura did not die simply, it was killed. Which seems again in Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Netanya or Ramallah less tragically than elsewhere, because it is not the only killed child. Who knows already the others, which died here - shot Palestinian and Israeli blown up into air. Muhammad aluminium-Dura s death however particularly moved the world - its death was filmed.
No other medium leads more near to the battleground than the camera. Long the media are included into the fights: Because the picture of only one corpse seems to say more than the number, the message of the thousand corpses, whom there were in this Intifada war. Who has the dramatic picture, the more convincing thing, more brutal? This question pushes itself ever further forward, before the causes behind the pictures. Pictures make opinion. And prejudices. The picture for instance of the bulligen Israeli Grenzer with impact club behind a bleeding young man: Symbol for crew supremacy and humiliated faint of the occupied ones. Which one does not see so easily: Before the Grenzer is an Israeli, whom the policeman saved ", flogged ".
What states the picture of the Haeufchen misery in the catches of the Israeli police - from the Palestinian boy, who makes itself before fear into the trousers? And which the picture of the same boy, who before throws minutes stones on the policemen? Only both together say the truth.
The camera cannot only document force, it can it also motivate. Hours and days of futile waiting can hide themselves behind a picture of dramatic force. If the reporter is at time pressure, the editorship waits for a picture of the dramatic front happening, which calms down now however straight - then the temptation comes. The camera is set up in such a way that it works like a request. For a long time Palestinian young people do not let be asked. Connoisseurs of the scene recognize such ordered protests easily. Only - also those are "genuine" pictures. Also that is war. Soldiers shoot back also here, demonstrators are met.
A classical author also: Tanks drive by the cities and roll over parking cars. The intelligent adjacents resident turn their cars off in time in the yard. Only the photographer places its (borrow)Auto off, where it has a good chance, to be rolled over. Or however the tank driver rolls over a car, which would be to be umfahren with something trouble - he noticed and knows the camera, what it by it expected.
Still on Sunday Gideon Meir of the Israeli State Department warned to regard of Israel fight for clearing-up as lost. "only on a long-term basis success is to be estimated at this front. So certain pictures can show at short notice large effect. But inquiries over months show that we have increasing success on the picture of the public opinion in the USA." Pictures everywhere. War makes pictures, and pictures make war. Of Israel again and again refers army speaker to the kind, "as the Palestinians zynisch their children to the front sends", where they come into the fire of the soldiers. And the Palestinians spend not rarely their dates for "spontaneous people unrests" already at the vortag to the press. If it applies to demonstrate employment will they call the cameras, in order to convince the world that they keep children away from demonstrations - the policemen place themselves to them then into the way, instead of schluerfen far dte. Such background spectators such as readers are not withheld. They are only more difficult. They do not have the striking power of pictures of the force or also the written reporting over the martial collision. It concerns to most journalist a balanced reporting between Palestinian and Israeli side. Ricardo Cristiano is considered there as exception. The TV tV-Korrespondent of the Italian RAI apologized with the Palestinian press office for it that a private Italian transmitter pictures of a lynching murder at two Israeli soldiers did not only film, but also still radiated. Cristiano is an exception, because he, completely on one side and hurrying ahead obediently, measured and to services to be wanted Palestinian interests. Which Insider however still more astonished: The domestic editorship did not take part in the renouncement of pictures of blood intoxication and mobilization force - also RAI radiated the pictures. Cristiano was back beordert.
Rafaelle Ciriello, another Italian television journalist, came into the headlines, because he turned out between the fronts. A ball met it in Ramallah, where the front between Palestinian armed one and Israeli soldier was unclear to past Wednesday. The picture of the dead picture hunter became a Politikum. The Palestinians opened the corpse chamber for all interested TV teams. In Israel the fact was noted that the corpse with crossed arms was aufgebahrt - as anti-Semitic allusion. What however had happened? Had Ciriello of six balls into the chest met or of a hidden explosive device been killed? Put of whom? Shot from whom? Nevertheless - Israelis such as Palestinians did not seek in this case to push for the other side death than accident or deliberate murder into the shoes. Such a thing happened evenly, was called it on both sides.
One must go not so far like the peace researcher Johan Galtung, which deplores a picture of the conflict, reduced to force. It demands diagnosis, prognosis and therapy "beside the almost illustration also" from the correspondents. To show the other side of the pictures - that would be already much.
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Abdul-Aziz
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Land of Eternal Truth
Feb 2003
time: 08:26
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DATAJACK FRANIT, however the childs are killed there on regular basis. That was just the only time someone taped it all.
Now answeriing to ELI...
POEMS - So Okay, if you want "raw material" go to that site yourself. As I said before, that site is like message boards, anybody can post any poems, that means they are not censored.
DEATHS - Not every death is reported, but the fact is that lots of Palestinian civilians are killed and that is already bad.
GAZA - Only a few people of the dead fought back. Also, remember that Israelis here runsacked a school, which obviously had nothing to do with terrorists. Many of the dead were civilians.
FREEDOM AND BLOWING UP - Well, they tried the peaceful way to get freedom, it led to nothing. The fact is that Israel will NEVER give freedom to Palestine, unless it will be forced. Something like with South Africa under apartheid regime - in fact, the situation is almost the same. If not the huge rise of black numbers in RSA and huge mass protests, sometimes violent, apartheid would still be there. The fact is, people doesn't blows themselves up for no reason. They do so because they sees no reason to live (mostly because Israeli oppression) and because they hopes this will help them. I am almost guaranteed that if I'd live in Palestine, I'd also join Hamas.
CHECKPOINTS, AMBULANCES - So, now you've showed your true opinion (this is by the way also the answer to first questions about why I think you'd support genocide), Palestinians are much less "worthy to live" than Jews... You've just said that stopping a few terror acts (btw, I bet the planners takes into account checkpoints anyway so a few terror acts could be stopped by that) worths the lives and time of MANY Palestinians!
JENIN, TERROR - OK, so now you are even claiming that if Jews kills their enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) it's good, but if Hamas does so, than it is "terrorism" (I also noted on my post about that terror act I talked that more than 50% of casualties would be Jewish officers/soldiers/etc.). How is it so? Or are Jews always right in your opinion?
SETTLERS - All settlers are radicals, otherwise they wouldn't even go there. Also, settling on ITSELF is a bad thing. It would be about the same as if someone sended prisoners, who came out of jail, top your town/city. Of course, not all would commit crime, but many would and that would make life in your town nmot so good. BTW, Israeli nationalises land, owned by Palestinians, for settling purposes, which is even more worse. Not to mention that Palestinians aren't permitted to buy land themselves...
INDEPENDENCE/STOP OF TERRORISM - Yes, probably they wouldn't stop immidietly because of what Israel did for them in past, but the fact is, without destroying homes, killing relatives, etc. much less people would support these organizations and they would completely loose their influence in a long term. Especially it would be so if Israel would help building the new state and rebuilding everything it has destroyed in past. It would also help militarily if government would fight with these organizations.
WAR CRIMES DONE BY ISRAELIS - Collective punishment is banned by international justice systems.
BTW, please read "The Zionist FAQ" in link bellow, it has answers to many questions, including about Arabs not accepting refugees and Arabs sending childs to death (in your sig):
http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html
To SIROTNIKOV: so for trusting their leaders you can do it in this way - at start, do a democratic elections in Palestine, closely monitored by international agents. After new government will be elected, remove the troops and recognise independence.
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Abdul-Aziz
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Land of Eternal Truth
Feb 2003
time: 08:26
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Sirotnikov, you're right. I know I am also too aggressive a bit, but I am trying to talk calmly...
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
DATAJACK FRANIT, however the childs are killed there on regular basis. That was just the only time someone taped it all.
Now answeriing to ELI...
POEMS - So Okay, if you want "raw material" go to that site yourself. As I said before, that site is like message boards, anybody can post any poems, that means they are not censored.
DEATHS - Not every death is reported, but the fact is that lots of Palestinian civilians are killed and that is already bad.
GAZA - Only a few people of the dead fought back. Also, remember that Israelis here runsacked a school, which obviously had nothing to do with terrorists. Many of the dead were civilians.
FREEDOM AND BLOWING UP - Well, they tried the peaceful way to get freedom, it led to nothing. The fact is that Israel will NEVER give freedom to Palestine, unless it will be forced. Something like with South Africa under apartheid regime - in fact, the situation is almost the same. If not the huge rise of black numbers in RSA and huge mass protests, sometimes violent, apartheid would still be there. The fact is, people doesn't blows themselves up for no reason. They do so because they sees no reason to live (mostly because Israeli oppression) and because they hopes this will help them. I am almost guaranteed that if I'd live in Palestine, I'd also join Hamas.
CHECKPOINTS, AMBULANCES - So, now you've showed your true opinion (this is by the way also the answer to first questions about why I think you'd support genocide), Palestinians are much less "worthy to live" than Jews... You've just said that stopping a few terror acts (btw, I bet the planners takes into account checkpoints anyway so a few terror acts could be stopped by that) worths the lives and time of MANY Palestinians!
JENIN, TERROR - OK, so now you are even claiming that if Jews kills their enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) it's good, but if Hamas does so, than it is "terrorism" (I also noted on my post about that terror act I talked that more than 50% of casualties would be Jewish officers/soldiers/etc.). How is it so? Or are Jews always right in your opinion?
SETTLERS - All settlers are radicals, otherwise they wouldn't even go there. Also, settling on ITSELF is a bad thing. It would be about the same as if someone sended prisoners, who came out of jail, top your town/city. Of course, not all would commit crime, but many would and that would make life in your town nmot so good. BTW, Israeli nationalises land, owned by Palestinians, for settling purposes, which is even more worse. Not to mention that Palestinians aren't permitted to buy land themselves...
INDEPENDENCE/STOP OF TERRORISM - Yes, probably they wouldn't stop immidietly because of what Israel did for them in past, but the fact is, without destroying homes, killing relatives, etc. much less people would support these organizations and they would completely loose their influence in a long term. Especially it would be so if Israel would help building the new state and rebuilding everything it has destroyed in past. It would also help militarily if government would fight with these organizations.
WAR CRIMES DONE BY ISRAELIS - Collective punishment is banned by international justice systems.
BTW, please read "The Zionist FAQ" in link bellow, it has answers to many questions, including about Arabs not accepting refugees and Arabs sending childs to death (in your sig):
http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html
To SIROTNIKOV: so for trusting their leaders you can do it in this way - at start, do a democratic elections in Palestine, closely monitored by international agents. After new government will be elected, remove the troops and recognise independence. |
hi ,
say , how many palestinian bombers do we have sitting in jail , .... say how many jewish or israeli bombers are sitting in jail , ......
say , .... why cant you look for facts in stead of nonsense , ......
say , a bomber who blows up a bus , is that not "collective punishment" , .....
say , where are you from ,....... you should come and see ones in a while , ......
bye
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Abdul-Aziz
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Land of Eternal Truth
Feb 2003
time: 08:26
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First, you didn't even answered the questions, thus I see no reason why you quouted my previous post at all. But I will however answer to your questions.
1.There are many Palestinians in jails, some are bombers, most are not, but the fact that there are few Jewish criminals (settlers, tortuers, etc.) in jails is very bad, since it jst shows racism in Israel. Jewish criminals can walk freely and are even encouraged (settlers and Sharons new law), while Palestinians who done the same and their families suffers.
2.So you spread nonsense and protect genocide. If you'd look at my posts, you'd see that I didn't anywhere said terrorism against civilians is good. However, you try to advocate for Jewish war criminals, who does this genocide. You even put the great war criminal and a man who did genocide in your avatar.
3.About bombers who blows busses. Yes, this is not good and in ideal situation it obviously wouldn't happen. But, we must take into account that Jews has weapons which Palestinians don't. Palestinians must resist and they (almost) can't do so against Jewish soldiers. While Jews at the same time could get real terorists, but they things it is better to kill more people. BTW, destroying homes, etc. just creates new terrorists. When would you be more likely to suicide, when you are rich, have good job, family and big house or when you suddenly lost everything?
4.If you read this thread, you should already know where am I from. My English is not very good, thus I didn't understood sentence "you should come and see ones in a while", could you explain?
;-)
Good luck.
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23-02-2003 22:31
they are creating a generation of suicide bombers
, it's just another 'Poly tradition like Banana. 
)
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