24-02-2003 05:37									#61
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The cost of having EotS build military units instead of workers is extremely high. Building a military unit gives you one unit. Building a worker gives you some combination of (1) irrigation and mines to improve cities' productivity, (2) roads to let the military move around faster, and (3) population added to outlying cities to make them more productive. In the absence of a military emergency, those things are ultimately a lot more valuable than using two turns' production in EotS for military purposes.

We're probably going to be stuck stockpiling gold for a few turns waiting for Vox to finish Philosophy. That will give us a "war chest" for emergency upgrades should the need arise, or we could even go ahead and do one or two upgrades if we feel the need. I don't like what that would do to our research down the road, but at least it wouldn't undercut our long-term productivity the way diverting EotS's attention away from building workers would.

We might also think about asking for some gold to help pay for the increased border enforcement expenses that this deal will create if it goes through. (And the hint that if Vox invites Lux in, it could provoke a military build-up on our part might possibly make Vox think twice too.)

Nathan

	24-02-2003 05:48									#62
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quote: (And the hint that if Vox invites Lux in, it could provoke a military build-up on our part might possibly make Vox think twice too.)

Indeed, if Vox get's the impression that their deal with Lux could provoke the gs hawks to become active again, there is a good chance they might reconsider.
Or at least share some of their wealth.

	24-02-2003 05:49									#63
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Speaking from the Spartan Academy, I concur with Nathan.

From this narrow perspective (acknowledging broader games issues and priorities), I would say in any case that Workers are almost as important as military units at this early stage of the game... let each town do what it can do best.

I worry about two things: 1) sufficient defense, and 2) sufficient offense. We are getting there, but let's keep our collective eye on ball, and stay balanced.

	24-02-2003 05:50									#64
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Another small BTW:
Vox having one less city, how corrupt it maybe, slows down our tech advance too.

	24-02-2003 05:54									#65
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I agree from a purely building view that workers in EotS makes sense.

However, from an MP view a lack preparedness could cost us the entire game. How effective are those workers then?

I think it is folly to continue down the road of the maxed out builder in the face of the lessons of how unpredictable the events of this game are going to be. Yes, I feel that the capitol as a Worker pump is maxed out.

Why can't Tempest fill this roll with the odd worker from EotS thrown in?

	24-02-2003 06:03									#66
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If we're going to divert a city to military use, Tempest would be a better choice than EotS. We could even use workers from EotS to pump up its size after building the tile improvements needed to make the effort worthwhile. I'm not entirely thrilled with the idea, but we can afford to lose Tempest as a worker-producing city a lot better than we could afford to lose EotS as one. (And building up Tempest's size could fit reasonably well with the possibility of using it as a wonder-producing city once we get out of Despotism.)

Nathan

	24-02-2003 06:16									#67
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Tempest could not be made into a 2 or 3 turn Worker factory fairly soon?

	24-02-2003 06:59									#68
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Tempest can work fine as a 5-turn worker pump once it gets up to speed, but trying to squeeze anything more out of it would be an exercise in futility. It doesn't have a granary and could not build one in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time. Production is also a serious problem. I suppose with a temple to expand its radius, we could get it from five turns to four, but it would have to grow to size 5 to pull that off, and by the time we'd get a temple built and get the city up to size, we'd be past the time where the extra workers would do us a huge amount of good.

I do like the idea of getting at least two or three workers out of Tempest before it moves on to other things. But if things reach a point where we feel a need to build extra units at the expense of worker production, Tempest is the logical city to sacrifice for that cause.

Nathan

	24-02-2003 11:02									#69
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My latest message from Beta sounds like the city transfer is a done deal.

	24-02-2003 12:40									#70
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With any luck the continentals will thrash about looking for the lost settler.

No one should breathe a word of this to anyone outside us and Vox.

btw, prepare the denials for when and if ND and GoW discover the ruse. That makes it even mor imperative that no one from GS ever present this being anything we were involved with or had any say over. Best to just shut up.

	24-02-2003 13:31									#71
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay My latest message from Beta sounds like the city transfer is a done deal.

Great. They carry out the deal anyway, and we don't get to set any conditions.
We've missed the train.

I'm pretty sure that Vox did this for loads of gold from Lux. Had we taken the opportunity, we could have forced Lux to give us half the money they were going to give to Vox so that we don't blow the deal and expose Lux, or destroy them ourselves.
Maybe we can start charging some protection money from Lux, in exchange for keeping their secret and keep our troops away from their city.

	24-02-2003 16:39									#72
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Sad that we don't have a military, to enforce our will. Let's attack the Luxian city anyway. After all, we're "Trash Trips Ass" and not "Save Trips Ass".

	24-02-2003 18:22									#73
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okay, I've been away for a couple of days, and now look what happens... Lux gets within reach

If we were to vote on this, my vote would have been a NO!. Sure, it weaks Vox by letting Lux hold one of their cities, but you can be sure that Lux paid enough for this. So, we would now face a possible immortals attack, a more powerful Vox (don't forget that maybe part of the deal was that Lux sends all it's workers to Vox), and a blame on our reputation to the rest of the world. I don't like it.

But, it looks like we aren't going to be able to do something about it. The least we can do is make sure to Vox that nobody here really approves of it, and we seek compensation in some form. They are delaying our research, they are risking our standing in the rest of the world, And themselves they become a bigger liability to us too.

I agree with many of the demands proposed here, like not once entering 'our' territory, no military force buildup, no immortals, and possible Lux's map in exchange for at least a bit of security. I don't think we can ask for compensation, in that we receive part of the pay of Vox, but that's something different.

BTW, how would such a deal go through? If Vox gives D-ville, and Lux disbands their capital, get all troops present in the capital be transferred to D-ville? Otherwise, it's almost certain that Vox is going to gain all workers from Lux, and we should be able to spot that for at least one turn in the military advisor. If so, I definately think we should demand for half their workers, we can't have Vox expanding as a result of this, it's already too bad they are going to gain money out of it.

DeepO

	24-02-2003 18:24									#74
	Put an end to popups!

BTW, what about doublecrossing Lux, and the moment they are being gifted the city, we simply move a warrior in? Afterwards, we can propose to Vox that they can buy it back from us, at the expense of 100 gold, or 1 worker or something similar. We didn't promise anything to Lux, we didn't promise anything to Vox, and since we're selling their city back for a serious discount, they can't blame us violating the border treaty.

DeepO

	24-02-2003 19:00									#75
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quote: No one should breathe a word of this to anyone outside us and Vox. btw, prepare the denials for when and if ND and GoW discover the ruse. That makes it even mor imperative that no one from GS ever present this being anything we were involved with or had any say over. Best to just shut up.

Or do the opposite and go public.

	24-02-2003 19:25									#76
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(1) I doubt that abandoning cities teleports your forces the way giving away a city does. If Lux was able to bring any forces with them, they had to have been able to move them the same turn and moved them to the one tile in range where Hack can't see them, and I can't imagine their emptying the city like that with a Voxian spearman in a position to just walk in.

(2) Was there time for Lux to give Vox workers? Remember, by the time Lux ended their turn, (and hence by the time Vox could accept an offer made by Lux while Lux had a city on our continent), the workers weren't in Lux's capital anymore. I wonder how the game handles that.

	24-02-2003 19:26									#77
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Damn. I was in NYC this weekend (drunk as a skunk) while this discussion took place.

Since it's been done, I say our next move is to take Portia (with Grog? Is he the closest?). TRASH TRIP'S ASS, right? What else would we do?

-Arrian

	24-02-2003 22:06									#78
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The way I see it, our choices at this point are to either take Portia (which is completely legit, since we're not legally bound to Lux, nor have we given our permission to this) and sell it back to Vox for a fair price, or come up with a list of demands for Trip and conquer Portia later (I suggest that as soon as we've switched to Republic, and using a WC to trigger our GA).
Let's start compiling a list of demands to Lux. I suggest the following:

1. Screenshots from Bob, and their world map as soon as in-game map trade is possible.
2. Half of their workers.
3. 60 gold cash, 3 gpt or a mixed deal (as long as we get 60 gold out of it).
4. Lux may not scout outside its borders.

Any comments or suggestions?

Last edited by Shiber on 24-02-2003 at 22:13

	24-02-2003 22:09									#79
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If Lux sees it coming, they'll pop rush a spearman next turn, in which case attacking would probably be futile. But if the city is still size 2, I would have nothing against moving Grog in to see if he can take it.

Handling the diplomatic side of things could be a bit trickier. Would we want to just stonewall (not replying to messages until it's too late), or to handle things some other way?

	24-02-2003 22:15									#80
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Any Luxian workers that haven't already been transferred (which was likely not possible in any case) are stranded. Workers have to be in the capital to be transferred, and Lux's capital isn't on the other continent anymore.

I think we want at least 80 gold if we let Lux live (assuming we have any say in the matter), enough to upgrade two warriors to swordsmen to help address the security concerns their presence on our continent raises. And, of course, a world map once they get Map Making.

Nathan

	24-02-2003 23:03									#81
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Nathan,

Hmm, I agree the diplomacy would be a problem. If we move in, they are gonna notice, and demand to know what we're doing.

Here's what we do, then (IMO): we move in immediately. When they ask us what we're doing, we respond with a list of demands for letting them live. Then they either have to accept, or poprush in their new capitol.

It's a minor risk, I'll admit (if they do poprush & tell us to piss off, we really can't take that city w/o an investment in things military. So it's a bit of a bluff.

Option #2 is to keep quiet while connecting our iron and upgrading 2-3 warriors to swords and then taking the city.

Either way, I either want huge concessions from Lux or Lux's death.

-Arrian

	24-02-2003 23:16									#82
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Boy, you guys all sure hate Lux! Whatever did they do to us?


Dominae

	24-02-2003 23:54									#83
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I don't hate them at all.

Edit: to explain further, what I DO hate is missing an opportunity. We have just been given an opportunity. I want to maximize the benifit from this situation. I feel taking the city, or extorting as much as we can from Lux in exchange for not taking it, is the best way to do so.

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 00:07									#84
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Arrian- we will try to extort them, that's for sure, but we mustn't put like this. We could say that Lux's new cultural center will weaken us, as well as the risk of foreign forces landing here to finnish the job, and a compensation is in order...

We must decide quickly, however, why don't we transfer the discussion to Dominae's new thread?

	25-02-2003 01:35									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Here's what we do, then (IMO): we move in immediately. When they ask us what we're doing, we respond with a list of demands for letting them live. Then they either have to accept, or poprush in their new capitol.

I'm almost convinced that this wouldn't work. After annoyed ND and GoW, razing all of their cities and sending enemy swordsmen on a manhunt after a settler, poprushing in their capital should be a piece of cake for Trip's team. They'll most likely do it when they see our warrior coming.

	25-02-2003 02:32									#86
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Looking at the screenshot, we can safely rush them, without fear of a pop-rushed spear, I think. It may depend on the specifics of PBEM, but isn't it so that pop-rushed warriors only appear at the start of Lux's turn? In this case, we can next turn move our warrior in, and before sending the turn make our demands clear to Lux. They can pop-rush all they want, but the capital will still be empty the tun thereafter, so our warrior can always take it if we want.

Demands: screenshots, and a game map would do, they won't have any cash left. We can ask for e.g. MM once they get it, if they are researching it...

Further, a similar message to Vox is also in order, to explain what we're doing. But again, I wouldn't do this before we have our warrior next to the new Lux capital.

If they don't agree, we simply take them, and try to get thing better again with Vox.

DeepO

	25-02-2003 02:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Demands: screenshots, and a game map would do, they won't have any cash left. We can ask for e.g. MM once they get it, if they are researching it... Further, a similar message to Vox is also in order, to explain what we're doing. But again, I wouldn't do this before we have our warrior next to the new Lux capital. If they don't agree, we simply take them, and try to get thing better again with Vox. DeepO

I like this plan

	25-02-2003 02:35									#88
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BTW, in theory they could have sent workers to Lux, but I just read that they disbanded their capital one turn before accepting the city. If it was one turn faster, they could have sent a worker to Vox, get the city, disband their capital, and move the new capital to where it is now. Right now, all they have left is a few units on Bob, and an empty capital, without any way of reinforcing it (except pop-rushing last turn, which would net them a warrior, nothing more)

DeepO

	25-02-2003 03:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO they won't have any cash left.

Then we can (IMHO, should) demand gpt instead (2 gpt would be nice for a start), as well as maps and screenshots.
Other than that, I really like this plan.

	25-02-2003 03:35									#90
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I would like this demand to be put in a polite way- something like:

"Your presence here was granted by Vox, who have clearly gained something in return, however, your presence here, as temporary as it may be, is still hindering our future plans- a cultural center, and a possible military threat. Therefor, the GS sees itself in a defensive position. A proper compensation on your behalf, as well as accepting the following articles (details of our demands- no military, no scouting, and so forth) is considered an appropriate way to handle the situation, without breaking the delicate balance that was achieved on this continent, after a long period of tension"

What do you say?