23-02-2003 21:56									#1
	Will we allow Vox to save Lux? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Vox is actually discussing the possibility to save Lux by gifting them Dissidentville. They asked for our approval. Things are urgent (for obvious reasons) and they want our answer as soon as possible. It is planned, that Lux later moves on the continent of Legoland, but that can't be done now due to the lack of contact.

The question is, will GS allow this move?

Discuss.

	23-02-2003 21:57									#2
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Oh, and my own opinion is: No, unless the price they pay is considerably high and they don't get the right to settle more at our continent.

	23-02-2003 22:01									#3
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I would also suggest a No. The only way Lux could survive between us and Vox is to either try and expand into our land (which we wouldn't let them do) or become a powerless vassal state that did everything we told them to do (why would they want that?).
Even if Lux could settle on Lego's continent on some far-off and undetermined date they would be so hopelessly behind that they could have no meaningful effect on the game.

(SR: I replied to your email you sent me about GS1. Did you get it? I'm having the same problem as you.)

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 23-02-2003 at 22:08

	23-02-2003 22:11									#4
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FP, I got the mail and have no answer for the "problem". It's not that important, I will just ignore it.

	23-02-2003 22:13									#5
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I say 'yes'. Once they're here, we make it clear that they are not to expand beyond, say, 3 cities, one in our side of the previous Voxian border, one on the Voxian side. LI is just trying to stay alive and "in the game" at this point, they'll agree to (almost) anything.

We therefore get a weak vassal state which we can milk for a few dozen turns. This benefits us while we're setting up. When the time is right, it should not be much more difficult to take down both LI and Vox instead of just Vox alone.

Another reason for my vote is that Dissidentville is certainly one of the better Voxian cities. Giving it away to LI weakens Vox, which is just fine. LI will remain weak, no matter what.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 22:16									#6
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No. Absolutely no.

So, D-ville is hopelessly corrupt, and the Voxidiots think they can create a buffer, and maybe future good will by letting GS take back that site?

Screw that.

	23-02-2003 22:19									#7
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I would accept this proposal, if Lux agrees to give away all of its possessions - gold (they must have a lot of that since they suspended their researched for some time, and I don't suppose they blew much on upgrading warriors, especially since they already lost two warriors before they managed to upgrade them), workers (they'll be able to give Vox and us workers once they get Dissidentville, if I understand correctly) and any techs that they might have that we don't.
We can conquer Dissidentville and any cities that Lux builds (they'll be slow expanders because of the jungle) later, when we conquer Vox as well.

	23-02-2003 22:24									#8
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There is one more danger:

Lux threatens to stay at war with ND and GoW. They think, they can hurt them with war weariness, once they switch to Republic. They question the fact, that WW is off in MP games. This would with no doubt attract military expeditions of ND and GoW at our continent. This is clearly no in our interest.

	23-02-2003 22:32									#9
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IF we allow for this, we will need to be compensated big time, as we will loose an IRON deposit due to their palace being there !!!!!!!

Need more time to think about it....

	23-02-2003 22:46									#10
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I think the idea is that Dissidentville will become the new Luxian capital, as they will probably be completely wiped off the mainland. I doubt very much the aggressors will continue their extermination campaign all the way to our continent. If they hint that they want to do such a thing, we'll just destroy LI ourselves. They would be "our" problem now.

Here's a piece of wisdom of origin I have no idea: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer". The more weak teams we have direct access to, the better. The fact that Vox turned out to be not very powerful was a gift. This is another.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 22:47									#11
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If Lux would promise to switch their capital to Vox's next new city once its built and allow Vox to capture Dissidentville, then it's not really a problem. In any case, I don't think that Lux is in any position to make demands, we can simply dictate the conditions to them and they'll have to take it.
I suggest that we allow Lux to move to Dissidentville and later relocate to another city that is not near an iron resource. Furthermore, they will not be allowed any more cities on this continent. In return, they will have to give all of their gold, workers and any techs that they might have that we don't to ourselves and Vox (we can split this equally, or give Vox the greater part since they're the ones giving one of their cities to Lux).

	23-02-2003 22:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think the idea is that Dissidentville will become the new Luxian capital, as they will probably be completely wiped off the mainland. I doubt very much the aggressors will continue their extermination campaign all the way to our continent. If they hint that they want to do such a thing, we'll just destroy LI ourselves. They would be "our" problem now. Here's a piece of wisdom of origin I have no idea: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer". The more weak teams we have direct access to, the better. The fact that Vox turned out to be not very powerful was a gift. This is another. Dominae

I absolutely agree.
We're planning on conquering Vox anyway. This will only weaken Vox (sets them back by one city), and thus allow us to conquer them and LI faster.

	23-02-2003 22:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph There is one more danger: Lux threatens to stay at war with ND and GoW. They think, they can hurt them with war weariness, once they switch to Republic. They question the fact, that WW is off in MP games. This would with no doubt attract military expeditions of ND and GoW at our continent. This is clearly no in our interest.

If we prove to them that this is wrong, they will most likely back out of this. In any case, this sounds like a rash idea which wasn't discussed extensively in LI's forum, and I'm sure we can talk them out of this later.
Alternatively, if GoW and ND believe that WW does exist in PBEM games, we can fool them and ask for a certain payment in order to kill off Lux.

	23-02-2003 22:56									#14
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Vox won't loose that much since they will be getting their techs anyway, it's just us that will be getting theirs later (due to slower research on their part).

quote: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer".

He who is not in the game, cannot do alot

(and I think your quote is from Sun Tsu...)

	23-02-2003 23:01									#15
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A map of BOB would be nice

	23-02-2003 23:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by alva He who is not in the game, cannot do alot

...for us. Lux is better to us alive than dead since they're so weak now. The fact that they're coming right to our doorstep is icing on the cake.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 23:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by alva A map of BOB would be nice

ANOTHER reason in favor of keeping Lux around.
Good thinking.

	23-02-2003 23:21									#18
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Lux gets contact with Lego, sells all their tech and get a (real) second chance...

What does get Vox get from this btw?

	23-02-2003 23:37									#19
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I see no point in allowing them refuge here- this might spell trouble. I am completely against this move (although we can't stop Vox if they really want to).

We know how hard it is to handle with one problematic team- do we need another to manage?
LI definitely is the bad guy, as far as the teams on Bob see it. Why do we want to bring them under our wing? they played like morons, and upset the meanest kid in the block- they deserve to be gone. I wouldn't want this to be spilled out- that we are even discussing this- we were smart not to soil ourselves, while the others fight it out like hungry wolves (also RP, with its share of hypocrisy and backstabbing).

We should be smart not to get involved in any way- not with us hosting an unwanted stranger in our land, nor forcing ourself to give away land or increasing the risk of foreign invasion. Also, taking LI oursleves will just divert us from our current course- as we will be looked on as an opportunistic bully- certainly not what we intend to look like.

The only way i see this happening, which should also be told to Vox- is this:

If you want to keep LI in the game like this, then you do so without excpeting us giving something to your or to LI.
Any city they wish to build- will have to stand on a tile that falls in your land, according to the border treaty on which signed.
You also must make sure, that in the event of our homeland Iron resource depletes, you or LI supply us with Iron, since we won't be able to hook that Iron south of Dissidentvill, if LI's palace sits there.
Remember This was also agreed when the border treaty was signed- that each team gets two tiles of Iron, and that Dissidentville does not threaten, with its cultural border, our possesion of the Iron resource. Since the existence of the Luxian palace will change this, if you choose to gift them the city.

IMHO, we should send this to Lux ASAP, are there any objections?


Oh, and, are LI's members that honorless? You lost folks, you just have to accept that...

	23-02-2003 23:47									#20
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Lux will be so weak that they will hardly be a threat. Thus the "unwanted stranger" argument fails, because they'll get quite cozy with us once they realise we're the big kid on the block (block = our continent).

Sure, they may have spelled their own doom, but I assure you they are not morons. Trip mentions over and over that he's essentially playing to have fun in this game. Not all teams are focused on the trophy as we are.

Personally I think it would be quite funny and profitable to have Lux as a vassal state. Vox has nothing to do with it, from our point of view. If they want to give Lux some of their land, so be it. It only weakens them and strengthens us.

About the Iron, we swoop in and say "You want to survive as our neighbors? Then: no Iron for you!". We would then place a Spearmen or three on the Iron deposit indefinitely. Note that this works with Lux because they want to survive. In fact, we're essentially denying Vox an Iron deposit.

I sense a poll coming...


Dominae

	23-02-2003 23:49									#21
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quote: (although we can't stop Vox if they really want to).

Not directly, we can take the city ourselves, if we would want to. Although this could slightly upset VOX , we could give disville back to them.
Wastfull, yes, but it is an option.

	23-02-2003 23:56									#22
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quote: Lux will be so weak that they will hardly be a threat.

True, but they will be plotting something to gain more power. Either with us or against us.

Like I said before I still havn't made my mind up either way, but atm I fail to see what we stand to gain from it.
For now, IMHO the pro's don't outweigh the contra's.

	23-02-2003 23:57									#23
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I agree that Lux is by no means a threat- and i basicly say that as i see it- there's no good in Lux grabbing a foothold here. BUT, if they agree to forfeit the Iron, compensate Vox (and Vox will give something from it to us- like their WM), and have no military whatsoever- meaning they can't spy on us.

Something like that can be arranged. I'll draw back my "complete objection", and would say that i'm not thrilled by the idea, and see it as an opportunity to make a profit- meaning that i would accept this only for the right price (like gold,WM, no settling, building no units whatsoever- just accumulating gold and making research, perhaps also paying rent to Vox... )

	23-02-2003 23:57									#24
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quote: Trip mentions over and over that he's essentially playing to have fun in this game.

Sorry, but I'm not buying this. I'm sure Trip was playing to win like we all are.

	23-02-2003 23:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I am completely against this move (although we can't stop Vox if they really want to).

Exactly. IMHO, chances are that Vox will find a way to do this without our agreement, whether we like it or not. Might as well agree but make some demands (e.g. no iron for LI, as Dominae proposed, and a share of LI's gold and workers, or whatever they'll manage to salvage from their old palace on Bob).

	24-02-2003 00:06									#26
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We can set any conditions we like. We can get a share of what LI could salvage of their gold and workers and Lux's world map; we could order (yes, order!) LI not to settle any more cities; we could deny them the iron source (thus also depriving Vox of one iron source, as Dominae explained).
This will weaken Vox, setting them back by one city. We're planning on conquering Vox later anyway, so when we do, we could conquer Lux as well (or leave their single jungle city be, if we prefer to. Maybe they can clear the jungle for us before we conquer it). Plus, the job of conquering Vox will be easier because they've been set back by one city relatively early in the game.

Lux will have to agree to our conditions . They have one other choice - die, but they want to stay in the game (and certainly don't wanna be the first team to get eliminated).

	24-02-2003 00:08									#27
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I'm still against this deal. It won't weaken Vox, as Dissidentville is a crap city anyway. And why should we bother with Lux. A weak Lux is good, ok, but a dead Lux is better.

	24-02-2003 01:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'm still against this deal. It won't weaken Vox, as Dissidentville is a crap city anyway.

So is their plains/desert capital. In fact, Dissidentville is slightly better since it has access to wheat, and since once the jungle around it is chopped, it becomes a grassland city (whereas their capital will be a plains/desert city forever).
In any case, I do think this will weaken them. Vox are already weak, and losing one city and some territory along with it would put another nail in their coffin.

quote: And why should we bother with Lux. A weak Lux is good, ok, but a dead Lux is better.

How is that?
A dead Lux can't share its map of Bob with us. A dead Lux can't share some of the gold that they could salvage with us. A dead Lux can't deprive Vox of one of their iron sources.
I can see lots of advantages in this plan, and few obstacles, all ones that we can overcome.

	24-02-2003 01:43									#29
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Message received from BetaHound

quote: Hello Sir Ralph. Regarding our earlier discussions, and your current deliberations, there is a desire by the Voxians that IF this is done as discussed, that we keep it quiet, and between GS, Vox, and Lux. For now. Some may wonder what is up when they still see Lux's name on the board, but we figure we should let them wonder. And BTW - if this does go through, we are insisting the new city be re-named Portia, from the Merchant of Venice and the "Quality of mercy..." speech. Regards .... Beta.

	24-02-2003 01:47									#30
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I am still more or less against this...

UNLESS we go pyscho on both at Vox and Lux at the same time, when we are ready, and clean our continent of all vermin.