23-02-2003 23:10									#1
	Alternative History Scenario - What if Nazi Germany Won WWII? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've always been intrested in an alternative history scenario where the nazis won WWII. What weapons would they have developed? Would the swastika flag be flying on the moon instead of the stars & stripes? What would the political and social map of the world be like? Would there be a new alternative cold war between the Third Reich and the US?

It would be intresting if we could come up with an alternative history timeline, from which one could build a scenario from.

I would love to read your opinions, ideas or thoughts.

	23-02-2003 23:18									#2
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Define "won". If a war is won by a side, it is over. But even if the western allies would have been defeated by the nazis, the war in the USSR would have lasted forever, as indicated by the book "Fatherland" (sorry, I forgot the author, but it is a famous book, and a decent movie has been made out of it).

	23-02-2003 23:32									#3
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perhaps the term 'survived' should best be applied.

The war with the west is over, but the war in the east continues.

	23-02-2003 23:32									#4
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use perhaps that timeline:
top secret documents have shown that the soviet union has been just one step before a capitulation (thats a fact - i saw it in a tv- documetary) i guess thats been about 1942(???) when the nazis had been near moscow.
imagine soviets had capitulated then the germans would have had a bigger chance to defend allied invasions.

	23-02-2003 23:43									#5
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The timeline in Fatherland, although intresting doesn't directly give a reason as to why Germany won. Also it is more of a backdrop for a detective story, rather than a story of life under nazi controlled europe.

	24-02-2003 00:13									#6
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Possible political map of Europe.

	24-02-2003 01:22									#7
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Interesting, especially with Romania now posessing parts of the Soviet Union. But what about Hungary? It had some territorial expansion istself, and whatever else, I don't think it would have been part of Germany.
Also, I think that Germany would soon have been interested in Syria and Iraq because of the oil reserves (possibly also Iran).

	24-02-2003 01:30									#8
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that would be indeed interesting because there would be no interest for Germany as they may use the oil fields of Maikop and Baku. The only reason would be that no-one else should ever get this oil.

and what about the US?

	24-02-2003 01:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Willhelm II Possible political map of Europe.

i canot agree...
Something Complains... in WWII,at Finland also At with Nazi... And Spanish Is must bee Green!

	24-02-2003 02:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel Interesting, especially with Romania now posessing parts of the Soviet Union. But what about Hungary? It had some territorial expansion istself, and whatever else, I don't think it would have been part of Germany. Also, I think that Germany would soon have been interested in Syria and Iraq because of the oil reserves (possibly also Iran).

Perhaps Hungary may have been given a piece of Yugoslavia by Germany? Or their own seperate piece of land in the East?

I do agree with the idea of germany being intrested in Middle Eastern Oil.

Currently making another map...

	24-02-2003 04:19									#11
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How about a scenario where Germany and Japan have both succeded in their territorial ambitions and are now facing off against each other? The convenient alliance is no longer valid as Hitler wishes to complete his new world order. Dictators such as Hitler never intend to conquer the whole world, just the parts that touch their land, then the parts that touch that, then the parts that touch that, then the......and so on.

	24-02-2003 04:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Caspian How about a scenario where Germany and Japan have both succeded in their territorial ambitions and are now facing off against each other? The convenient alliance is no longer valid as Hitler wishes to complete his new world order. Dictators such as Hitler never intend to conquer the whole world, just the parts that touch their land, then the parts that touch that, then the parts that touch that, then the......and so on.

I believe that should be a seperate scenario after this one, since I believe that although Hitler did intend Germany to finally attack Japan, this would have been decades after (Hitler probably would have been dead by then). Germany, after the war with Russia, would require to re-build herself and re-settle the new conqoured lands in the east with 'pure Aryan Germanic blood'.

And after that? Why not a scenario based far into the future, where nazism has ruled the earth and now seeks to expand its evil self to other planets to abosorb new minerals and enslave entire planets of different alien races.

We could have a trilogy forming here... lol

	24-02-2003 04:39									#13
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LoL. And Hitler could still be alive but by this stage "he's more machine than man now" Only George Lucas would sue us for stealing his ideas.

	24-02-2003 04:39									#14
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The only problem I see with this whole thing is that the Americans would have nuked Berlin, or the industrial cities on the Rhine. With America's lead in atomic weapons I don't see how they ever could have "lost". The only way would have been if Germany had taken control of Britain, Iceland, and Greenland. That way the Americans would have no way to deliver the atomic weapons.

Pap

	24-02-2003 04:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Pap1723 The only problem I see with this whole thing is that the Americans would have nuked Berlin, or the industrial cities on the Rhine. With America's lead in atomic weapons I don't see how they ever could have "lost". The only way would have been if Germany had taken control of Britain, Iceland, and Greenland. That way the Americans would have no way to deliver the atomic weapons. Pap

What if the Americans pull out of the war? What if they decided that it was lost in Europe, but continued their efforts in Asia instead? Perhaps during this time Germany could have developed a Nuclear device, and with their advanced Rocket program they would be deemed even more dangerous.

America drops the Bomb on Japan, and the war is over in the pacific - but Nazi germany still controlls most of Europe, and as a result of having even more advanced weapons and rockets, a cold war develops between the two new super powers.

	24-02-2003 04:53									#16
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Well, in the book "Fatherland" germany had conveniently developed its own bomb in the nick of time and had threatened to nuke London as a reprisal. This resulted in a stalemate and an alternative cold war situation. I can't remember why there was still a war in Russia...presumebly the allies didn't give a pop about Stalin.

	24-02-2003 05:29									#17
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July 1, 1960 - The Greater German Reich puts the first man on the moon.

	24-02-2003 05:31									#18
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That is actually a very scary thought. The astronaught needs to be making a nazi salute instead. Just as well he's not..it would give me nightmares

	24-02-2003 05:48									#19
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This could make an intresting story set. All we need to do is write up a timeline spanning from 1945 to the distant future.

	24-02-2003 08:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Willhelm II What if the Americans pull out of the war?

It was Hitler who declared war on the US in December 1941, not the other way around. Granted, America was practically an ally by then but Hitler could have bought time by making US intervention in Europe FDR's call. Say in an alt-hist Hitler's evidence of Soviet atrocities beats Stalin's evidence of Nazi atrocities, leading to a non-agression pact with Washington. Without US aid there's stalemate in Western Europe, at least until Nazi sucess in the East....

Hey, it's just an althist.

	24-02-2003 09:04									#21
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quote: It was Hitler who declared war on the US in December 1941, not the other way around. Granted, America was practically an ally by then but Hitler could have bought time by making US intervention in Europe FDR's call. Say in an alt-hist Hitler's evidence of Soviet atrocities beats Stalin's evidence of Nazi atrocities, leading to a non-agression pact with Washington. Without US aid there's stalemate in Western Europe, at least until Nazi sucess in the East....

I like that, best idea I've heard so far.

	24-02-2003 11:25									#22
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Perhaps as an addition, Nazi espinonage penetration of teh D-day landing planning allowed them to in turn develop their own ruse. When the landings took place the allies were pounded back into the sea. The vast loss of life toppled the American governments (Isolationaist rise, again, in the states and pacifist in Britian.)

Non-aggression treaty is signed with America (in return for Germany renoucing their Treaty with the Japanese and America cancelling support for the USSR.) After all, the Japanese are (from the Nazi perspective) not remotely related to the pure 'Ayran' race.

Britian signs a Versaille type treaty with the Germans. Effectively Britian becomes a vasal state of europe. Spain openly becomes pro-nazi, in line with its facist government. The British Commonwealth fragments, some support American war against Japan, others become neutrals.

American continues war against Japan and to save 'face' from its disasterous European adventures, accelerates research into Nuclear Fission and nukes Japan to ensure early capitulation. Germans capture Moscow, USSR retreats and attempts to rebuild 'beyond' the Urals.

THis brief hyoptehical history leaves out China, Indochina and Africa. I do not envy the scenario builder who attempts this one. But I am willing to play test it. :-)

	24-02-2003 13:20									#23
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I cannot imagined this. Yeah, Ive heard that the nukes were initially for Berlin (the "Reichshauptsstadt") and Vienna (the 2nd important city in the German Empire). I also heard that the US never would have nuked german cities .... for there was a strong german minority in the US ....

quote: The only problem I see with this whole thing is that the Americans would have nuked Berlin, or the industrial cities on the Rhine. With America's lead in atomic weapons I don't see how they ever could have "lost". The only way would have been if Germany had taken control of Britain, Iceland, and Greenland. That way the Americans would have no way to deliver the atomic weapons.

And after all, if "Unternehmen Barbarossa" would have succeded following the German Plans the USSR would have surrendered in December/January 1941/42 and Hitler could have faced the Allies in the West with more than Invalids, Hitler Youth and Volkssturm. In that case I would say that in midst of spring 1942 Egypt would have been lost, the Suez Channel too and Palestine would have been given to the Muslims. Finally Englands sues for peace

quote: America drops the Bomb on Japan, and the war is over in the pacific - but Nazi germany still controlls most of Europe, and as a result of having even more advanced weapons and rockets, a cold war develops between the two new super powers.

And this could have lead to a Cold War of the two Superpowers USA and the Great Reich.

	24-02-2003 18:08									#24
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I seem to remember one movie, the philidelphia experient two, or something else two anyways. The film is set in the late 80's and the plot is something like a stealth aircraft on its way to germany gets caught in a time storm and transported back in time to Nazi Germany. The plane had one nuclear weapon. A Nazi scientist claims he invested the stealth bomber/fighter and the Nazis use this plane and bomb washington and threaten to nuke other American cities if they don't pull out of the war or surrender or some such.

The trouble is that for some reason, the aircraft delivery the ordinence is obilierated in the nuclear fireball and the Nazis of course do not have the tech to rebuild it and have been trying for forty odd years to do it. America becomes a german province, but there are still rebels, one notably being something called 'Free Alaska' My memory is a little scetchy but the bottom line is that a freak 'time' accident causes an alternate time line to develop.

	24-02-2003 18:19									#25
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If USA has langugea is Deuthland or conferens make pact with Deuthland and ww2 they... so then maybe
it is wery possibly that Nazis win wwII
But ww3 begin at 1980 and now it is. Howewer ww3 is also pacties change enemy...
And also vice versa...

	24-02-2003 22:11									#26
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ottok is on the right track with this - you need a VERY early Point of departure to (EG German speaking US) to change the outcome in WW2. Even a neutral US probably doesnt do it, given the sheer material advatages the USSR had over Germany, and the inability of Germany to strike at USSR productive resources east of the Urals. A military victory over the USSR is virtually impossible, and ultimately the USSR will build up enough to beat Germany, its only a matter of time. Only thing I can think of that makes a German win possible is a political breakup and possible civil war in the rump (mainly trans-Ural) USSR. But then any AH would have to reflect that.

	24-02-2003 22:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ottok is on the right track with this - you need a VERY early Point of departure to (EG German speaking US) to change the outcome in WW2. .... Only thing I can think of that makes a German win possible is a political breakup and possible civil war in the rump (mainly trans-Ural) USSR. But then any AH would have to reflect that.

For a decisive military victory of Germany over the Sovs, sure. But I could see an armistice signed in 1943 or so, ending the fighting but not the hostility. Then a German-Soviet Cold War to end the world.

For chaos in Russia, you don't need to go that far back. One generation tops.

	25-02-2003 00:14									#28
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Have Barbarossa start when it was originally planned for so the Germans make it to Moscow before Winter tiem.

Pap

	25-02-2003 13:39									#29
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quote: For a decisive military victory of Germany over the Sovs, sure. But I could see an armistice signed in 1943 or so, ending the fighting but not the hostility. Then a German-Soviet Cold War to end the world.

During Operation Taifun (Typhoon) there have been some riots in Moscow demanding peace with Germany and the end of communism.

In my opinion I could alos imagine an other outcome of Unternehmen Barbarossa if Germany would not have treated the people of the USSR as unworthy scum. I guess that freeing the people of the USSR from communism could have had THE major impact on the Soviet System. Many German Generals knew this but the directives from Hitler forbade this.

This could have also been a point were Germany lost. I think freeing the people together with defeating the Red Army so far as Germany came by December 1941 may have turned the tides.


And do not forget the Battle of Kiev. What could ever have happened if Hitler ordered the assault in mid September not on Kiev but on Moscow?

And also remeber the words of Hitler: "The citadels of Communism are Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. If these cities fall, so will Communism."

The initial plan of Hitler was to defeat Stalin in s ahort Blitzkrieg in the summer (Stalins plan was defeating Hitler in a short war during winter).

quote: Have Barbarossa start when it was originally planned for so the Germans make it to Moscow before Winter tiem.

And what about the reason for the postponing of Barbarossa? Would you have the Italians lose the war within 3 months in autumn 1940?


I would start some Alternate History Scenario after the lost Air Battle against England with "Unternehmen Felix".

As Barbarossa was the plan against Russia, Felix was (mainly) von Brauchitsch plan against England in the Med. This would have been more interesting. Imagine: Italy at war in Albania/Greece and the North African desert, German Elite Fallschirmjäger taking Gibraltar and Spain entering the war as a member of the Axis. Before the meeting between Hitler and Franco in Hendaye this was also a quite popular option for the German Empire.

	25-02-2003 17:49									#30
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Newt Gingrinch (former Speaker of the House) co-wrote an alternate-history book called "1945." In it, Kennedy (JFK's dad, ambassador to England in 1939-40, and a Hitler-appeaser) is elected president and keeps the US out of the European war. England holds the Germans in North Africa and a cease-fire is negotiated, but Germany pushes the Soviets back to the Urals. In 1945, Germany launches a surprise attack on England, with Rommel spearheading an amphibious invasion in Scotland from Norway, while most of the British army is tied down defending Egypt. Germany also launches a commando raid on the US, with long-range aircraft seizing airfields and unloading paratroopers that destroy the test reactors and facilities being used by the US to create the atomic bomb. The book ends with the US rushing early jet-fighter aircraft and pilots to defend England. There was supposed to be another book, but I don't think there was.