26-02-2003 13:21									#211
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Chevron does not employ a large number of humanities graduates in management?

	26-02-2003 13:22									#212
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Chevron does not employ a large number of humanities graduates in management?

Depends what you mean by humanities.
http://www.chevrontexaco.com/about/...uman_resources/

The MINIMUM requirements if you're hired strictly as human resources (and not as an engineer-hybrid like is popular in the Canadian divisions here) are an MBA or Master's in Human Resources.

	26-02-2003 13:23									#213
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Hmmm. MBA's are all Engineers?

	26-02-2003 13:24									#214
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Many of them. All the ones I personally have met anyway, but I'm sure some of them are economics people...

They actually pay for engineers to get MBAs if they think they're management material.

	26-02-2003 13:25									#215
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Gee. Accounting. Where does that fall in a University?

Finance? Hmmm.

Human resources?

Marketing?

Sales?

	26-02-2003 13:26									#216
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Gee. Accounting. Where does that fall in a University? Finance? Hmmm. Human resources? Marketing? Sales?

Of course those specialized departments aren't engineers.

I never said otherwise.

Most human resources/management, however, *ARE* engineers with further training. It's how most of the oil companies work.

Apparently they've brought in some "staff groups" which are a bunch of BAs, though. Apparently they won't last for long, all they do is ask questions and try to "keep communication flowing" between all the divisions, but it just slows productivity.

	26-02-2003 13:31									#217
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Sorry to spam your intelligent discussion, guys.

Asher, just have a look at the titles of the papers here:

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/papers/

Don't you think that all these subjects are worth pursuing?

	26-02-2003 13:33									#218
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Hehe. Marketing and sales... Specialised. Hehe.

I would suggest that any corporation needs those 'specialists' or go the way of the Dodo.

Not to mention Accounting and Finance...

	26-02-2003 13:34									#219
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Is it just a coincidence that stuff like Electromagnetism are developed under a different field?

	26-02-2003 13:35									#220
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Hehe. Marketing and sales... Specialised. Hehe. I would suggest that any corporation needs those 'specialists' or go the way of the Dodo. Not to mention Accounting and Finance...

Yeah, definitely.

I'm not saying there's no place for BAs in companies.

Take careful note, however, they don't hire philosophers.

	26-02-2003 13:38									#221
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Having very briefly looked at the Electromagnetism paper, I'm left wondering what the point of it was.

It seems to me to just be telling a story, explaining what it is.

What's useful about it? Can a physicist help me out here?

	26-02-2003 13:39									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Is it just a coincidence that stuff like Electromagnetism are developed under a different field?

It is not. Stuff like Electromagnetism just benefit from a philosophical outlook.

	26-02-2003 13:39									#223
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And this is a classic example of uselessness in Philosophy: http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/.../Dialethism.pdf

	26-02-2003 13:40									#224
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It is not. Stuff like Electromagnetism just benefit from a philosophical outlook.

Explain, please...

How does it benefit from philosophical outlook?

If you REALLY want to help me figure out how useful philosophy is, can someone point me to a Philosophy-CS related connection? Like Agathon was talking about Turing machines and AI...

I'm willing to admit philosophy is useful once someone shows me. And I think the only way for me to know that is to find a connection to my field of study.

So please...anyone feel free...

	26-02-2003 13:40									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yeah, definitely. I'm not saying there's no place for BAs in companies. Take careful note, however, they don't hire philosophers.

At this point, I will leave you over to the troll, since I think I've made my point.

	26-02-2003 13:51									#226
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I've got to go to bed now.
But I leave you with a random publication from one of my CS profs to contrast to those listed in the link Vagabond provided: http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~eber...nius_report.pdf

Compare and constrast the styles, and what the purpose is.

	26-02-2003 14:08									#227
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When I first posted in this thread (right at the beginning) I was under the impression that it was a simple rant, so my post was meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Please let me point out now that my PhD is not in 'philosophy' (it is in physics) - I was merely pointing out that the title PhD is latin for 'Doctor of philosophy'.

Anyway, I certainly do not think that philosophy, arts or the humanities are useless. They are just as important as science. Although I would not like to live in a world without electricity, I would also not like to live in a world without literature or music. I think it is important to study social interactions of our society, and for that matter the social interaction of ancient Rome.

I think that perhaps the problem is that there are often widely publicised arts or humanities projects which are completely useless (like determining whether lesbians have a predisposition towards jelly-babies) which make us think that all arts or humanities projects are equally useless. As these projects are about subjects that we think we know something about, we feel free to critique them.

But there are a lot of scientific papers out there which are complete and utter garbage - it is just that the general public does not see them and even if they did wouldn't understand how crap they were.

	26-02-2003 14:24									#228
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quote: You really have no clue what people in the humanities are trained to do, do you? Write poetry about clouds all day, I suppose is your opinion. The humanities are about arguement, not math. The humanities are about people, not concrete. The humanities are about evaluating theories, not proving theorems. Now, of course the sciences and engineering have their places, but so too do the humanities. Those who suggest otherwise are fairly ignorant. btw, Philosophy is a branch of the humanities.

Is this supposed to be the answer to my question?

If so, I have no clue what you are talking about.

	26-02-2003 14:26									#229
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quote: Anyway, I certainly do not think that philosophy, arts or the humanities are useless. They are just as important as science. Although I would not like to live in a world without electricity, I would also not like to live in a world without literature or music. I think it is important to study social interactions of our society, and for that matter the social interaction of ancient Rome.

Rogan, none of the examples you mention is in the field of philosophy.

So the argument still stands, doesn't it?

	26-02-2003 14:27									#230
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I wouldn't suppose you would know.

	26-02-2003 14:30									#231
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Do you have anything to say, apart from insults?

	26-02-2003 14:35									#232
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Rogan, I think you touch on an important point here, though.

If we all admit that philosophy is useless for all practical purposes, we can lump it in with fields such as music and drama. Basically, entertainment.

So, if you think that music should be publically financed, well then it would be consistent to think philosophy should be financed as well. I'm guessing that Asher would think not, though. And so would I. Although, if someone can supply me with an argument as to why entertainment should be publically financed, please do.

	26-02-2003 14:50									#233
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Asher, you are too fast and impatient. You just have a glance at a paper and make hasty judgements. It should be read slowly and thoughtfully.

The paper by your prof. looks nice. But it doesn't make philosophical papers look bad, if that was your intention. These are just different subjects.

quote: Explain, please... How does it benefit from philosophical outlook?

It's about interpretations. Interpretations don't affect the hard-science apparatus, but help our understanding.

	26-02-2003 14:53									#234
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Notyou: I guess not.

Well, it seems I was wrong. There is a difference in even the non-technical skills between a history major and an engineer.

If the argumentative skills presented here are an indication of your education, notyou, I would love to read some of your college exams.

notyou - The first Punic war started because totempole lawnmower followed by two cans of beer.

teacher - I don't understand your answer

notyou - You are stupid


Luckily I do know that you are not representative. Boshko, please come and rescue your field from ridicule!!!!!!!!!!

	26-02-2003 14:54									#235
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Vagabond:

quote: Interpretations don't affect the hard-science apparatus, but help our understanding.

Who is "our"?

	26-02-2003 15:00									#236
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Humanity as a whole, or its most enlightened part.

	26-02-2003 15:27									#237
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Ahh

Well, as I wrote before: I know of no scientist who read philosophy on the side. I'm currently working for the worlds foremost scientist in applied computational chemistry, and he certainly doesn't read any philo... He doesn't have the time, since he does chemistry 16 hours a day

And as far as the masses go, they rely on technical writers. These people are journalists. Their training is to explain science to people without the background knowledge and tehcnical vocabulary.

At no point do I find a philosopher in there....

	26-02-2003 18:34									#238
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Rogan, none of the examples you mention is in the field of philosophy.

I was on the point of delving into a discussion of the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics, but then realised I didn't know enough philosophy to do it justice.

quote: Well, as I wrote before: I know of no scientist who read philosophy on the side.

I do.

	26-02-2003 18:56									#239
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You mean like Newton?

Newton's philosophy was crap, yes.

It's a shame he spent so much time on alchemy and theology. What a waste...

	26-02-2003 18:59									#240
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quote: professional philosophers

If philosophers are so great at reasoning they should consider switching fields and becoming logicians, who actually end up proving things instead of sputtering back and forth...