25-02-2003 03:49									#1
	Diplomacy Scholia: selling CoL Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As you know, CoL is due in 3 turns, and we probably want to trade it away, i urge the ambassadors and everyone to join the discussion and finalize proposals. Our targets are:

Lux- can't have it- they don't have writing...

RP- we want literature, and should close the deal ASAP, is there anything else we'd like to combine in the deal as well?

ND- what do we want from them? money, techs? we should find out what they are willing to offer (or maybe they have researched it themselves), alva? Vox will give us contact next turn (hopefuly).

GoW- i'll handle this, but i need to know what we want from- perhaps HBR+gold? or any other techs they have? or just gold?


Please, tell me quickly what we want, as well as probing the teams- than post quick updates here. I want a clean and efficient operation, not one that will liter the entire board... (post the logs as well, but please also take the time to update this thread).

	25-02-2003 04:05									#2
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What we want, wherever possible, is to trade Code of Laws for whatever tech they're in the process of researching. Horseback Riding is completely uninteresting to us in and of itself - it's ours from Vox any time we ask for it - and would be interesting only if it comes with gold and if GoW is not going to be in a position to trade us a more advanced tech. Map Making would be worth throwing in a little gold on our side for (gold to be delivered only when Map Making is, even if we provide Code of Laws first), but I would be reluctant to go much if any over a third of the difference in beaker cost. (Getting one third from two other civs would make costs even for all three; one third from three would give the civ that researched Map Making the financial advantage.)

As far as I'm concerned, "We'll give you CoL now and you give us [fill in the blank] when you get it," is acceptable. Once they have Code of Laws from us, trying to renege without messing up their reputations could get awkward. We'd be taking a chance on a possible doublecross, but at least we would cut off the possibility of someone's reselling Code of Laws.

Also, we don't want to finalize a deal with one civ unless either they promise not to resell the tech or we also have deals lined up with the others. After all, we don't want someone else reselling our hard-researched tech and cutting us out of the deal.

Nathan

	25-02-2003 04:15									#3
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Maybe Lux will give us Dissidentville in exchange for Code of Laws...

	25-02-2003 04:21									#4
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Shouldn't we discuss whether we're going to either do a simultanous deal with all teams, or go for an NDA instead?

DeepO

	25-02-2003 22:14									#5
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I'd say we should aim for a simultaneous deal if possible- RP shouldn't be mad at us- after all, according to Togas' diplomatic methods- they shouldn't expect us to do them a favor of NDA, when we obvioudly could arrange it ourselves. And frankly, i think we can. The time for discussion is nearly ending, and we have more pressing issues to discuss, so i think its rather urgent that the ambassadors start probing the teams.

As for GoW: GF has replied with telling me (without refering to CoL specificly) that they have HBR, and willing to trade for it (we already knew that, i'll ask for gold later), and that they will have MM in 9 turns, which they are also willing to trade. He also reffered to WM trading. Anyhow, i'd rather we have all the options in front of us, before we start a real bargaining.

	25-02-2003 22:30									#6
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An idea re: MM from GoW:
We tell GoW that we feel that it's unfortunate that they won't have MM in time, but we have a solution. We'll offer them CoL for 150 gold. They should accept this deal, and as soon as they research MM, offer it to us for 180 gold (150 / 10 * 12 = 180). This would solve both the sync problem and the tech cost problem.
What do you think?

	25-02-2003 22:31									#7
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How about if we offer to go ahead and give GoW Code of Laws at the same time we make other trades for it, in exchange for their giving us Map Making within two turns after they get it (to allow them some time to try to sell it to other teams)? Tell them that since we have War Chariots, we're a lot more interested in Map Making than we are in a deal regarding Horseback Riding.

And we still need to get in contact with ND. Sir Ralph, do you still feel comfortable being ambassador to ND with your planning to join them in the ISDG? Or does that create too much of a possible conflict of interest? Someone needs to get moving on that.

Nathan

	25-02-2003 22:39									#8
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Cross-posted with Shiber. Shiber's proposal would be great if GoW has the spare gold lying around, but considering the war they've been involved in, my bet is that they won't. But we could tell them that if they can't come up with the full amount, we'll be willing to take whatever they can come up with, in which case we would return the amount they give us, plus 30 gold to cover the difference in tech values. (I'm tempted to ask for a reduction in their payment if they can't come up with the full 150, but if I were them, my response would be, "Let's just wait until we get Map Making to do the trade, then.")

Nathan

	25-02-2003 22:44									#9
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Why not try to get it on a equal basis first?
1. If the tension is rising on the main continent, they are likely to get more eager to sell ("if we don't,someelse will").
2. They get the tech long before us, thus that equals the gold.

	25-02-2003 22:45									#10
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Proposed message to ND, if noone object within a couple of hours it will be sent.

quote: Greetings from Gathering Storm, I hope all is well and the Gods are shining on you. We seem to be distant neighbors and therefore do not have the honor and pleasure of meeting you more often. This saddens me very much, let’s hope someday we will have better transportation methods that will allow us to visit one another more frequently. I apologize for the hastiness, but I have a quick and somewhat urgent message to convey. Our civ's wise men will soon complete their research in a new field named "Code of Laws", and we were wondering, if and what your glorious civilization might be willing to offer for this technology? We are open to many offers and will consider them carefully. However let me state that we have no interested of having "Horse back riding" as part of the deal. For this we already made arrangements with another civilization. Thanks you for your attentiveness. Alva, Gathering Storm's ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.

	25-02-2003 22:50									#11
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Nathan's proposal sounds good, and i'd go ahead and send it to GF. But i'd rather we see the other teams' proposals before we go ahead with serious bargaining. I don't have much spare time, so if anyone is willing, please send a message to ND and ask them for proposals. I will check again in a few hours, and in no more than 12 hours, i will send GoW an offer (in case ND hasn't got a better MM offer for us).

	25-02-2003 22:51									#12
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Part of me likes the idea of trying to go for a straight trade, while another part thinks GoW might be less likely to try a doublecross if they stand to get something on the back end of the deal too. I'd be interested to see other opinions on the matter.

Alva, your proposed message to ND looks okay to me.

	25-02-2003 23:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Shiber's proposal would be great if GoW has the spare gold lying around, but considering the war they've been involved in, my bet is that they won't.

Can't we ask for 7 gpt (= 140 gold) instead, and later return 170 gold?

	25-02-2003 23:05									#14
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quote: Originally posted by alva 2. They get the tech long before us, thus that equals the gold.

I disagree. CoL has no real worth, it is only a prerequisite. If this was Literature, for example, we could have asked for more gold since they'll be able to build libraries faster, but not in the case of CoL.
In other words, prereq. techs have no real worth while you're researching something else, so we shouldn't pretend that CoL does.

	25-02-2003 23:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by alva Proposed message to ND, if noone object within a couple of hours it will be sent.

I object. They'll just offer HBR plus some gold which we don't want. We need to make them an offer first, and I recommend that it'd be:
1. Deal #1: CoL for 150 gold; Deal #2: MM for 180 gold.
2. Deal #1: CoL for 7 gpt; Deal #2: MM for 170 gold.
IMHO both options should be presented to GoW, so that they could choose, depending on the status of their treasury.

	25-02-2003 23:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I disagree. CoL has no real worth, it is only a prerequisite. If this was Literature, for example, we could have asked for more gold since they'll be able to build libraries faster, but not in the case of CoL. In other words, prereq. techs have no real worth while you're researching something else, so we shouldn't pretend that CoL does.

mm, ok, but MM isn't one of the biggest pririties in this game. (at least not from GoW's view on us, we have a nice little continent, etc...)

Therefore you can argue that the only reason we want MM is that we 'need' it as a prerequisite to reach the middleages as is the case with HBR.

	25-02-2003 23:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I object. They'll just offer HBR plus some gold which we don't want. We need to make them an offer first, and I recommend that it'd be: 1. Deal #1: CoL for 150 gold; Deal #2: MM for 180 gold. 2. Deal #1: CoL for 7 gpt; Deal #2: MM for 170 gold. IMHO both options should be presented to GoW, so that they could choose, depending on the status of their treasury.

Shiber, either you are and or I am.

This is a message to ND

	25-02-2003 23:33									#18
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Alva, it might be good to make it clear to ND that we already have arrangements lined up for Horseback Riding and that we would prefer to swap for a newer tech if they have one or will get one soon, but that we would consider gold (either up front or per turn) if that is all they can come up with.

Shiber, I don't like the timing on a gold-per-turn deal. I'm not sure the inability to break a gpt deal without declaring war would be as big a deterrent as it is in SP, plus, a gpt outlay would slow down GoW's Map Making research.

Nathan

	25-02-2003 23:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by alva Therefore you can argue that the only reason we want MM is that we 'need' it as a prerequisite to reach the middleages as is the case with HBR.

MM lets you build harbors; like Literature, it is both a prerequisite and a tech that enables a city improvement. CoL, on the other hand, is just a prerequisite, therefore we can't charge extra for delivering it earlier.

quote: Originally posted by alva Shiber, either you are and or I am. This is a message to ND

Yes, you're right.

	25-02-2003 23:42									#20
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GoW: I think we can trust them, and hope that if we are the first to give them our tech, they will trust us too. We definately need to acquire MM urgently, for one reason only: we need to sell it to Lux before they can buy it elsewhere. So, if possible, don't propose to accept MM from them 2 turns after discovery, if they don't ask for it. Quite likely, if we offered them our tech in front, they will offer theirs (not accepted, as part of the money needs to be transfered) the turn they discover it. No need to ask for a delay...

ND: I would ask them to make an offer, we might now more then. We kind of know they're working towards construction (which was gossip from GF), so let them offer it to us, if they want. I strongly doubt that any team on Bob is going to offer gold for our techs, they need it much too badly... don't ask for it either.

RP: I haven't heard back from us. In the same message to them, I proposed a lon if they needed it, and told them we are going to get republic before they can, so they might need to choose another research path. I can understand this is going to take some time.

DeepO

	25-02-2003 23:42									#21
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Code of Laws allows courthouses, which can be qute valuable for making cities with significant corruption more useful. It's Philosophy that's only value is as a prerequisite.

	25-02-2003 23:48									#22
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DeepO, I think it was premature for you to bring up trading Republic with RP. We'll probably need to trade it just to keep a civ that's hot on our heels researching it from doing so (assuming we're in the lead at the time), but we haven't made a final decision on that yet.

	25-02-2003 23:49									#23
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quote: Alva, it might be good to make it clear to ND that we already have arrangements lined up for Horseback Riding and that we would prefer to swap for a newer tech if they have one or will get one soon, but that we would consider gold (either up front or per turn) if that is all they can come up with.

* added the HBR thing,
not going to add the GPT part(unless someone else comes up with something else why I should ), if they offer someking of non-tech trading, we know they have gold aplenty.
(Trip said something about 20 swordsmen, =warrior upgrade).

	25-02-2003 23:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by alva * added the HBR thing, not going to add the GPT part(unless someone else comes up with something else why I should ), if they offer someking of non-tech trading, we know they have gold aplenty. (Trip said something about 20 swordsmen, =warrior upgrade).

But they may have most of the 20 swordsmen already and be upgrading as fast as they get the gold. Or they may even have already used up their pre-built warriors and be having to build swordsmen from scratch to get the rest of the way up to 20. I don't think we can interpret Trip's words as meaning that they necessarily have a lot of gold lying around. (If you were fighting a war, wouldn't you upgrade units as the gold becomes available?)

Nathan

	25-02-2003 23:56									#25
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Nathan, I tried to word it carefully, and thought I didn't offer a trade, only warned them that we would probably be first to discover it. But, you're right in one respect: that message was perhaps a little too much, it got debated for nearly a week, and while further toned down might still be too much seeing the new situation.

My only excuse would be that I wasn't fully briefed yet, there were a pile of new posts in less then 2 days of absence.

DeepO

	26-02-2003 00:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Code of Laws allows courthouses, which can be qute valuable for making cities with significant corruption more useful. It's Philosophy that's only value is as a prerequisite.

Of course. I'm so stupid today.
Someone shoot me before I make another stupid mistake.

	26-02-2003 01:26									#27
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GPT for tech in this game is unwise, unless we are very comfortable with the people paying, and even then things can change fast.

With GoW involved in a continental power struggle it would be sheer folly.

	26-02-2003 01:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay (If you were fighting a war, wouldn't you upgrade units as the gold becomes available?) Nathan

Sure, but your point even makes my reasoning more effective.
If they have no tech to trade, and say something like, "we want to but can't", we know they spent there money on the upgrades.(or at least we can assume.
Let them try to be creative and say too much

But to make you feel at ease I'll hint at it

	26-02-2003 02:46									#29
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okay, i'm posting a message to GF, offering him the following:

Giving us 150 gold (or less if they don't have cash, but not a petty amount like 10 or 20...) now for CoL, and they give us MM when ready- we then pay them back what they gave us plus 30.

The idea pf them giving us gpt doesn't exactly thrill me, but if they pose a hard line against our offer, we can then offer them the gpt deal (they pay X-gpt while we return them in a lump sum).

	26-02-2003 17:07									#30
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RP just responded, the CoL for literature deal is settled. If we offer CoL the turn we discover it, we should get Literature back the turn after that.

DeepO