01-03-2003 04:02									#31
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Mao had very strong totalitarianist leanings. Much more so than Stalin, even. Stalin committed the atrocities he did commit because of his Mental sickness.

Mao, wasn't deranged as Stalin was.

	01-03-2003 04:18									#32
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I would be interested in reading J.S. Mills also. I have another suggestion, a shorter work by Adam Smith called Theory of Moral Sentiments. This is a discussion of enlightenment ethics. I think we should start before scientific socialism so that we can get a perspective of the context that these ideas were developed in.

	01-03-2003 04:26									#33
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If we're gonna keep moving back in time, I change my vote to Machiavelli's Discourses, or possibly something prehistorical.

Come on people can't we read contemporary books from a contemporary perspective dealing with contemporary issues?

	01-03-2003 04:28									#34
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True, most of the quotes in the little red book are not very clear.

After the book became alpha and omega the party could get away with atrocities by simply quote from the book.

	01-03-2003 11:32									#35
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Do we have enough nominations to hold a vote?

	01-03-2003 11:39									#36
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Dicatorship vs Democracy by Trotsky
Just because I like needling che with it.

	01-03-2003 11:43									#37
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So far I see
Engels'Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Hardt, Negri: Empire
Guevara: Motorcycle Diaries
Goldman: Living My Life
London: Iron Heel
Wainwright: Arguements for a New Left
Mao Tse-Tung- Quotations of Chairman Mao Tsetung (Mao's Little Red Book)
Smith- Theory of Moral Sentiments
Trotsky - Dictatorship vs. Democracy

	01-03-2003 11:48									#38
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Sounds like enough books to vote on to me.

Btw, I'm not participating but I would like to make a suggestion that y'all ought to take seriously (and is going to piss off jon miller, btw, but I can't help that): you really should only nominate books that you've read.

You can vote for any book that you like, but in all fairness to the club, nominating books w/o determining whether they are worth discussing is a sure-fire method to picking crappy books with no conversational value.

	01-03-2003 11:48									#39
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For fear of getting more nominations then we can handle, in Che's absence, I will stop accepting nominations in fifteen minutes and start a poll thread that will determine the recemended reading material.

	01-03-2003 11:49									#40
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thanks for the wise words John.

	01-03-2003 11:50									#41
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By the way, since Che mentioned it in the first post in this thread, the Foundation discussion thread is up 'n running.

	01-03-2003 11:50									#42
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I think Che should choose 3 or 4 of those for vote. That would be easiest.

	01-03-2003 11:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider thanks for the wise words John.

You're welcome.

	01-03-2003 11:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think Che should choose 3 or 4 of those for vote. That would be easiest.

Best way to do it is to get as many nominations as you can (1 per person, please!) and then start a poll thread that allows multiple choice. Ask the voters to limit themselves to three choices and then wait and see how it comes out.

	01-03-2003 11:54									#45
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Yeah, ok. Good idea John

	01-03-2003 12:12									#46
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Maybe a little late but I'd nominate Thomas Moore's Utopia for ideas on possible values of a communist society. The discerning reader will also note the flaws in his communal vision.

	01-03-2003 14:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Mao had very strong totalitarianist leanings.

Mao was heavily influenced by Stalin in some ways, feeling that only an authoritarian government by the proletariat will work for a communist country.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Much more so than Stalin, even. Stalin committed the atrocities he did commit because of his Mental sickness.

There are several theories on this. One holds that dispite his Marxist learnings, Mao was fundamentally a peasant, and his thoughts were largely influenced by this viewpoint. What he did was a lot like what some founding emperors had done. Another one holds that he actually believed in what he preached, that "class enemies" had to be flushed out. It's not a simple issue.

	01-03-2003 14:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Maybe a little late but I'd nominate Thomas Moore's Utopia for ideas on possible values of a communist society. The discerning reader will also note the flaws in his communal vision.

Yo, it's Thothum

	01-03-2003 14:52									#49
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Thubbens!

	01-03-2003 15:18									#50
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quote: There are several theories on this. One holds that dispite his Marxist learnings, Mao was fundamentally a peasant, and his thoughts were largely influenced by this viewpoint. What he did was a lot like what some founding emperors had done. Another one holds that he actually believed in what he preached, that "class enemies" had to be flushed out. It's not a simple issue.

I've heard that he was inspired by some emperors. and yes, I know it's not a simple issue.

	01-03-2003 16:10									#51
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Some accused Mao wanted to be an emperor, with absolute powers, at least subconsciously.

	01-03-2003 21:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I myself am intereted in an ideological background for a third way/right social democrat politics. I would therefore be interested in non-Marxist socialists, revisionist Marxist, and left liberals and radicals.

Just to answer lotm, I don't think there's any objection to reading any of the trends you suggested. I don't think you can really understand what you agree with without understand what you disagree with. I might disagree with Norman Thomas or William Morris, but if I simply ignore them I'm not doing myself any favors.

In other words, please feel welcome to nominate a book.

	01-03-2003 21:19									#53
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quote: Some accused Mao wanted to be an emperor, with absolute powers, at least subconsciously.

I have an inclination to agree. But obviously, it's not black/white.

	07-03-2003 02:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Maybe a little late but I'd nominate Thomas Moore's Utopia for ideas on possible values of a communist society. The discerning reader will also note the flaws in his communal vision.

That is a good nomination for April