01-03-2003 11:18									#1
	The Apolyton Science Fiction Book Club: Foundation Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

For starters, April’s book is Enders Game, by Orson Scott Card. Easily the clear winner with 13 votes, over Larry Niven and his Ringworld’s 9.

Let’s start with the standard info. Be warned that this book has been reprinted quite a number of times by different publishers:

Name: Foundation
Author: Isaac Asimov
Published: 1951 in novel form, though the individual stories within were published in Astounding magazine in the proceeding decade.*
Publisher: Avon Books. Currently, Bantam books owns the publishing rights.

The scope of this discussion is the original novel, btw, and if you bring up the subsequent novels in your posts, please use the spoiler tag. Thanks!

Synopsis:

Foundation, and its two sequels Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation, tell the story of the collapse of the Galactic Empire and the efforts by a group of scientists to shorten the period of anarchy after the Fall. The novel starts by introducing us to the world of Hari Seldon, the founder of Psychohistory, a mathematical study of psychology which Seldon developed into a very powerful tool for predicting the general flow of history. Seldon is aware that the millennia-old Galactic Empire that he inhabits is in its last days, and while he can do nothing to prevent the crash, his studies in Psychohistory have made him aware of a plan of action that could, if successful, compress the resulting Dark Ages from 30,000 years to a “mere” 1,000. Foundation tells the story of the first 150 years of Seldon’s plan.

“The Psychohistorians”, the first chapter, introduces us to Hari Seldon and shows his efforts to have the two Foundations set up in time before the Empires collapse – we learn that one Foundation is to be placed on the planet “Terminus”, which is located on the periphery of the Empires rule, but we do not learn the location of the 2nd Foundation. Terminus is a metal-poor planet, and is one that is quite vulnerable to attack.

The second chapter, “The Encyclopedists” takes place 50 years after the end of Chapter 1 and introduces us to both Salvor Hardin, the mayor of Terminus City (meaning he is also the de facto ruler of the planet Terminus) and the “hero” of this and the next chapter, and, more importantly, the concept of the “Seldon Crisis” – a problem that Seldon considers to be so knotty there is an actual probability of the Plan breaking down. Because of the predictive power of Psychohistory, Seldon is able to record a number of speeches relating to the Seldon crisises and the lessons supposedly learned by future audiences, speeches that are usually viewed by the Foundations leaders after the crisis has been solved. In Chapter 2 the story really takes off as the Foundation turns from the passive collecting and codifying of knowledge towards a more pragmatic view of the Foundations role in the local sphere of space… and eventually, the Galaxy. Chapter 2 ends on a cliffhanger of sorts, with the reader being told that the solution to the problem that faces the Foundation is “Obvious as all Hell!” Unfortunately for the reader, we have to read Chapter 3 to find out what the solution actually was.

Chapter 3, “The Mayors”, continues the story of Salvor Hardin 30 years after the events in Chapter 2. Over the course of the chapter we learn that Hardin has established a “religion of science”, with a priesthood that is trained and inculcated on Terminus. The priests are the only ones capable of maintaining the technology (especially in the use of atomic power) needed to run an industrial society. By the end of the chapter, the Foundation uses this priesthood to effectively seize control of the nearest 4 planetary kingdoms (in the process the reader learns that a “Balance of Power” philosophy was used by the Foundation to keep the 4 kingdoms from invading her earlier), but Seldon notes that the use of the Priesthood is limited, as once the news gets out that the Foundation is using the priesthood to gain control the priests will be forbidden from proselytizing on new worlds.

In Chapter 4, “The Traders,” we find that Seldon was correct, and now the Foundation is beginning to use the power of economics to further expand its reach, even to the point of corrupting entire planetary governments. This theme is fully explored by the end of Chapter 5, “The Merchant Princes,” where the Foundation is fully set on the path of economic conquest and domination.

*Publishing History of the various chapters:

Chapter Name, Original Story Name, Date Published (all stories originally published in Astounding magazine)

The Psychohistorians, “Foundation”, May 1942.
The Encyclopedists, “Foundation”, May 1942.
The Mayors, “Bridle and Saddle”, June 1942.
The Traders, “The Wedge”, October 1944.
The Merchant Princes, “The Big and the Little”, August 1944.

	01-03-2003 11:21									#2
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Impact

It would be hard to overestimate the impact and influence of both Foundation and Asimov upon science fiction, especially in the fiction written before the advent of the “New Wave” of science fiction (in America, the New Wave is usually dated from the appearance of Harlan Ellison’s (ed.) Dangerous Visions anthology in 1967). Since I’m kind of a “listy” kind of guy, I’ll go to my favorite format to (hopefully) prove my point.

1. For starters, emotion and the existence of passion has ZERO impact on the events of the novel – as a matter of fact, every character that operates on motive(s) based upon emotion always loses to the more rational minded Foundation and its leaders.

2. As far as I can tell, Foundation is the first series of novels in the history of science fiction with a connected storyline. Serials have been in existence long before Foundation of course (especially in the Western genre), but (for the most part) the actions in one book are independent of the story in another. Foundation differs from the standard serial format in that it takes three full-length novels to tell one story.

3. Foundation is also one of the earliest examples of “Space Opera”, a sub-genre of science fiction where strict scientific accuracy takes a backseat to the needs of building a Universe out of whole cloth. Space Operas do not concern themselves with principles of physics/chemistry/etc (ala Hal Clement and early Niven), but rather with less “scientific” disciplines such as sociology and economics. Many people look down upon Space Operas because of their lack of strict scientific accuracy, but they’re pretty much nobs in my opinion.

4. Women? What women? Non-whites? What non-whites? I can’t really blame Foundation for the subsequent drought of female and non-Caucasian characters in science fiction, but Asimov wasn’t one to write a female character where a man could do. I do not think that there is a single female character of consequence in Foundation except for the Commdora in the last chapter.

5. Standard themes that would be continually explored in science fiction make some of their earliest appearance here: the use and impact of atomic weapons and power, the supremacy of rationalism and thought over emotion and passion, the ever-increasing stifling nature of bureaucracy and the tendency (in sci-fi at least) for authors to think in terms of a monolithic and monopolistic State.

6. Joseph Campbell and Astounding magazine, who almost single-handedly kept science fiction alive as a viable genre in the 1940s.

7. And, of course, the beginnings of the career of Isaac Asimov, possibly the most influential and widely-read writer in the history of the genre.

8. The Foundation series was voted “Best All-Time Series” by the Hugo awards in 1965. It would be interesting to see what a similar vote today would be (I think Dune or LOTR would win, btw).

	01-03-2003 11:53									#3
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Are you sure the characters were all white? It's been awhile since I read those books, but it seems to me that most of the characters weren't physically described in enough detail to be sure what their race was. And I remember one major female character, Bayta Darrell, who showed up in (IIRC) Second Foundation.

	01-03-2003 11:58									#4
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Yeah, I don't recall any mention of skin tone in Foundation.

	01-03-2003 11:59									#5
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Hmmm. Perhaps Asimov didn't specify the race of his characters (there is a lack of physical description, though we do learn that Seldon has blue eyes and age spots), but, not to be offensive or anything, they all sound White as all hell.

Typically though, if a character or a society is of a different race than the author, the author usually makes note of that fact.

	01-03-2003 12:08									#6
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What about psychohistory itself? I don't know about y'all but it seems like the most incredible idea in all of his books. I'd imagine it'd be like Economics, but with much worse predictive capability, as hard as that is to imagine. I wonder if there are there any emergent properties in historical systems. Or any feedback systems.

	01-03-2003 12:14									#7
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Well, they sounded "white" because Asimov was "translating" for a very predominately white readership. The residents of a galactic empire thousands of years from now probably won't speak English, at least not in any form we'd recognize. A story set in such an empire has to render the dialogue in a form its readers will understand.

	01-03-2003 12:19									#8
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Possibly. You're right about Bayta Darrell - I didn't remember her as I didn't read the sequels before this thread.

But still - Sci Fi before the '60s New Wave was dominated by White Males. As I noted, that isn't Asimov's fault but the trend is quite unmistakeable. More than likely it was just a sign o' the times.

	01-03-2003 19:02									#9
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Haven't got time to write much, having just got back from London after a hellish train journey...
Main female characters? Bayta Darell (Foundation and Empire), Arcadia Darell (Second Foundation), Bliss (Foundation's Edge, Foundation and Earth), Speakeress Delora Delarmi, Sura Novi (both Foundation’s Edge) and most important of all, Dors Venabili (Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation).

Anyway.
What I love about Foundation is the fact that, despite the Seldon Plan, humanity is still very dependent on individuality. Seldon predicts the broad sweep of history and can tell what events will transpire, but it is still down to the genius of certain individuals to ensure that these events do happen.
For example, Salvor Hardin's single-handed defeat of Anacreon. Psychohistory could not predict his actions; instead of sitting back and relying on the Plan to guide the Foundation safely through the crisis, he took an active role and brought the crisis to an end.
What Foundation effectively reminds us is that, although there are greater forces working all around us, we are not isolated from them. Any individual is capable of being the fulcrum upon which a great decision balances. The sweep of history can be diverted down a different path by the actions of one person.
This theme continues throughout the rest of the series. The machinations of history, economics and religion are mere side-issues compared to individuals, from the Mule to Bayta Darell, from Golan Trevize to Preem Palver. Most importantly of all, even the all-encompassing Plan can be derailed by a single person - the mutant Mule, and disaster can be averted by a single person - Bayta Darell.

My two cents. Also, a friend and I have worked out where the Foundation characters stand with relation to the Major Arcana of the Tarot. While that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, the explanations are actually really interesting. Want me to post it?

	01-03-2003 20:50									#10
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Eighteen minutes after midnight? Dang John.

	01-03-2003 21:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Want me to post it?

I think that would be kinda cool. Didn't Jung write that that the trumps cards lay out the major characters phenotypes for literature? Azimov wrote this in Jung's day. It may all be crap, but that won't make it any interesting than other types of literary criticism.

	01-03-2003 21:31									#13
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Oh, nuts, haven't gotten to rereading it.

The early Foundation novels have grown on me over the years. When I was young teen, I found them unbearingly dry compared to the later Prelude to Foundation. Now, I think they are excellent.

I love the handling of the solutions of the crises and the machinations of the main characters. Emotions suck anyway.

As for women, I don't think Asimov was capable of writing convincing ones. I very much hated the Arkady/Mama/Papa plotline of one of the subsequent novels. Asimov considered one of his robot stories his greatest failure because he couldn't get the female character right (I think it was Liar, Liar).

Race-wise, the Galactic Empire did not necessarily have the same distinct ones as we do. A movie could cast pretty much any race into any of the roles with great success (as Kenneth Branaugh demostrated in his Hamlet).

	01-03-2003 22:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Haven't got time to write much, having just got back from London after a hellish train journey... Main female characters? Bayta Darell (Foundation and Empire), Arcadia Darell (Second Foundation), Bliss (Foundation's Edge, Foundation and Earth), Speakeress Delora Delarmi, Sura Novi (both Foundation’s Edge) and most important of all, Dors Venabili (Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation). Anyway. What I love about Foundation is the fact that, despite the Seldon Plan, humanity is still very dependent on individuality. Seldon predicts the broad sweep of history and can tell what events will transpire, but it is still down to the genius of certain individuals to ensure that these events do happen. For example, Salvor Hardin's single-handed defeat of Anacreon. Psychohistory could not predict his actions; instead of sitting back and relying on the Plan to guide the Foundation safely through the crisis, he took an active role and brought the crisis to an end. What Foundation effectively reminds us is that, although there are greater forces working all around us, we are not isolated from them. Any individual is capable of being the fulcrum upon which a great decision balances. The sweep of history can be diverted down a different path by the actions of one person. This theme continues throughout the rest of the series. The machinations of history, economics and religion are mere side-issues compared to individuals, from the Mule to Bayta Darell, from Golan Trevize to Preem Palver. Most importantly of all, even the all-encompassing Plan can be derailed by a single person - the mutant Mule, and disaster can be averted by a single person - Bayta Darell. My two cents. Also, a friend and I have worked out where the Foundation characters stand with relation to the Major Arcana of the Tarot. While that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, the explanations are actually really interesting. Want me to post it?

I'm glad my throw-away comment regarding women and non-Caucasions is causing some discussion.

It isn't until we get past the first book that the above analysis by Clear Skies becomes clear. I definitely agree that Asimov took a liking to the "Great Man" theory of historical development, though the reader really must go past the first novel to get the idea - actually, except for Seldon himself, the first novel doesn't really read that way at all. Even Hardin believed in The Plan and thought that there was an irresistable path to history: one that he played a part in, true, but a part that was already defined by Seldon. Yes, Seldon didn't tell him the "answer" to the problems, but Hardin did have enough faith in Seldon as to believe that the solution would naturally occur to him - and a person who believes and acts will generally accomplish more than one who doesn't believe but acts anyway.

My favorite name: Poly Verisof. Sounds like a software outfit if you ask me.

	01-03-2003 22:09									#15
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Oh, yes, by all means, post the Tarot piece.

	02-03-2003 00:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT not to be offensive or anything, they all sound White as all hell.

That's because Asimov doesn't do dialogue well. The "rational" people all talk in heavy exposition mode and everyone else talks in some kind of dialect which identifies them as less intelligent. This is pretty common to all his stories, but especially the Foundation stuff.

	02-03-2003 00:26									#17
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it arrived yesterday. il have to read it quick, to join in.

	02-03-2003 00:33									#18
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Thread is active all month, jdd. Take your time.

	02-03-2003 02:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Rex Little Well, they sounded "white" because Asimov was "translating" for a very predominately white readership. The residents of a galactic empire thousands of years from now probably won't speak English, at least not in any form we'd recognize. A story set in such an empire has to render the dialogue in a form its readers will understand.

First of all, I'm not a English-speaker, and I have read Foundation in Spanish, not in English (In the future, I hope I can read it on English), and, even more, I don' know how a white/non-white sounds in English but, if I recall it correctly, in Prelude to Foundation or in Towards Foundation (sorry, I'm translating the Spanish names to English, they can be no exact) Harri Seldom said that those that were too white or too black were the exception, and that the vast majority was a mix (If I recall it correctly)

BTW, I love all the foundation series, but the three first books are much better than the others

	02-03-2003 03:21									#20
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OK, I don't have the exhaustive Foundation tarot (it's still in London and I'm in Preston, damnit, I knew I'd leave something small but vital behind...I have the Discworld tarot, and the Gundam Wing tarot, but not the Foundation...) but here's the condensed version.
With massive thanks to AtheneMiranda, because this is a lot more her work than mine. Not all of them are filled in, but once I get Zoe to send the full version up from London I'll paste it in.
As to che's comment about them being the phenotypes of literature - I like to think of them more as genotypes what you get before the environment intervenes. If you take time to sit down and work them out, there are parallels between the Major Arcana and characters in many major literary works - so far we've only managed Foundation and Lord of the Rings, but I'm sure we'll get around to doing others sometime soon.
Anyway. Here we are - numeral, name, description and character.



0 The Fool: pure unchannelled potential, a plot-taker not a plot maker - Fallom
I The Magician: the guide you don't understand - Salvor Hardin
II The Priestess: nobody's side - Bayta Darell
III The Empress: the inevitability of nature - Gaia
IV The Emperor: the shot-caller - the Seldon Plan
V The Hierophant: the divine-right mind-ruler - the Second Foundation
VI The Lovers: the decision maker - Golan Trevize
VII The Chariot: the plot-pusher - the First Foundation
VIII Strength: the constant - Janov Pelorat, Dors Venabili
IX The Hermit: the lone wolf - Pelorat again
X The Wheel of Fortune: in way over their heads - Arcadia Darell
XI Justice: the line-drawer - Cleon II
XII The Hanged Man: the identity crisis - Sura Novi
XIII Death: the changeover - Indbur
XIV Temperance: the balancer - Quindor Shandess
XV The Devil: the fear-inducer - the Mule
XVI The Tower: the rulebreaker - the Mule again
XVII The Star: hope (ironically enough, none I can think of)
XVIII The Moon: enigma - Sura Novi
XIX The Sun: achievement and ambition - Wienis
XX Judgement: the string-puller - Hari Seldon
XXI The World: the one who understands, keeper of hidden knowledge - Bliss
XXII The Master: master of themselves and others - Harla Branno

	02-03-2003 03:32									#21
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Just another very quick note before I have to go get some sleep (train journey yesterday was hell):
In Foundation, Asimov challenges social model after social model. The fine balance of power held by Hardin over the Four Kingdoms gives way to the religious dominion by the Foundation, which in turn gives way to the economic dominance of the Traders, which in turn gives way to the military might of Harla Branno's day...
However, not only social models were challenged by Asimov. Philosophical ideals were also built up and torn down one by one. The cohesive top-down structure of the Empire fell; Seldon himself was unsure that the physical-knowledge-based Foundation would survive, so he created a Second Foundation, Plato's 'philosopher-kings', to guide the First Foundation and eventually rule the Second Empire.

The trend continues throughout the rest of the series. The Mule's 'benevolent' mental dictatorship rises and falls. Trevize is called upon to adjudicate between the technological First Foundation, the mentalic Second Foundation and the omniscient Gaian Overmind, which holds the potential for an almost uber-communistic collective Galaxy. Even then, Trevize is not sure that he has made the right decision, and continues seeking for the hidden hand of the Eternals behind his choice.
Every idea Asimov ever had, he challenged, and it makes for damn fine reading.


OK, apologies if that made no sense, but I'll clarify tomorrow. I really got to go to bed...

	02-03-2003 03:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies ... OK, apologies if that made no sense, but I'll clarify tomorrow. I really got to go to bed...

I think that it's clear (I've read it without problems). In fact, I agree, although I like much more the three first books, where there are a lot of social/economic models; the fifth book, for instance, is related much more to the Earth than to any social model

	02-03-2003 04:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I definitely agree that Asimov took a liking to the "Great Man" theory of historical development, though the reader really must go past the first novel to get the idea - actually, except for Seldon himself, the first novel doesn't really read that way at all.

I have to disagree. Almost the whole book is concerned with two Great Men: Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow. They're specifically singled out in Foundation's Edge as such. Their actions as individuals, operating counter to the mainstream Foundationers, completely reshape Foundation history.

Just because Seldon shows up to rubberstamp their planned course of action does not make them less great. The Seldon appearances themselves are only a literary device to show that the other characters have made the right decisions. If he didn't show up, how would the reader know? Each appearance only serves to make Seldon look even greater.

Seldon himself was originally conceived as only a minor character in the stories. In "The Psychohistorians", written last to provide a better opening for the novelized version, I think Asimov goes a little overboard on Seldon's greatness (Of course, in the prequels, he goes even further overboard, but that's another story ).

The psychohistory elements in most of the stories are set up to place the role of decision-maker in the hands of one person.* The Foundation stories are extremely anti-bureaucratic, and none of the decisions are ever made by committee. Asimov goes out of his way to show that the fall of the First Galactic Empire can be traced directly to the over-growth of it's bureaucracy.

This anti-bureaucratic bias isn't surprising given that the stories were written under the guidance of John Campbell, who helped give birth to the American libertarian movement. This theme works its way into most "Astounding" stories: The rational individualist vs. the irrational bureacracy.



* Spoiler for those who haven't read the full trilogy:

spoiler(highlight to read): And that particular decision-maker probably isn't put there by accident, either.

	02-03-2003 11:37									#24
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quote: What I love about Foundation is the fact that, despite the Seldon Plan, humanity is still very dependent on individuality.

I would disagree. It's not individuality that the novel emphasizes, but the greatness of a select few individuals; it's elitism that it emphasizes. Psycho-history applies to the unwashed masses, but a few select individuals, not your average person, can rise above it.

	02-03-2003 21:48									#25
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Can't anyone be one of the few select individuals?

	02-03-2003 23:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Can't anyone be one of the few select individuals?

Not really.

Spoiler for those who haven't read the full trilogy:

spoiler(highlight to read): The theme of elitism runs throughout the novel. The importance of individuals making decisions that impact the future of the galaxy is hammered home again and again (contrary to what one would expect from psychohistory ). Also, the rational scientific elitism of the First Foundation itself over the barbarism of its neighbors is a running theme, to the point where the FF is basically waving its magic boomstick around for much of the novel. But there's another kind of elitism operating as well behind the scenes: the elitism of the Second Foundation over the First. By the end of the trilogy, the implications are fairly clear: great men are not exactly self-made, they are chosen by the Second Foundation to lead the First. Asimov conceived the two Foundations and their roles from the very beginning. Altough the SF doesn't directly appear in the first novel, it does cast a shadow over it, and Asimov hints in The Encyclodepists and The Mayors that something more is going on than meets the eye. There is no way for an individual to rise above the masses without the approval of the Second Foundation. The right kind of person is placed at the nexus point in history to make the right decision in accordance with the Seldon plan. There is no true individualism. To some degree, even the Seldon Crises themselves are artificially created. IMO, the true elitism in the Foundation universe isn't the small group of individuals from First Foundation over the rest of the galaxy, but the even smaller group of individuals of the Second Foundation who are really in control, who operate in secret and manipulate history to their liking, "the Seldon Plan".

	03-03-2003 02:22									#27
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A lot of good comments here! Thanks!

I will admit that I am at a disadvantage here as I only re-read the first novel and didn't touch the others. But, in the best Apolyton spirit, my lack of knowledge won't prevent me from opening my mouth.

Clear Skies: "OK, apologies if that made no sense, but I'll clarify tomorrow. I really got to go to bed..."

It made plenty of sense, and that is how I view the Dune books - each of the sequels has, as part of its function, the deconstruction of the hero in the previous novels.

Static23: "I have to disagree. Almost the whole book is concerned with two Great Men: Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow. They're specifically singled out in Foundation's Edge as such. Their actions as individuals, operating counter to the mainstream Foundationers, completely reshape Foundation history."

You're right... and you're wrong. You are quite correct that over the long term development of the series this is how it played out, but given only the original novel I will argue that both Mallow and Hardin operated under the belief that their actions, even if it was inimical to the elites of Terminus, were perfectly in accordance with Seldon's plan. Of course this doesn't make them any the less "Great Men", but they were doing what they believed Seldon thought best. Of course, your theory is the correct one, but what good is a discussion thread if we all just say "I agree"?

You might be interested in the following web essay that I dug up in my readings: http://users.skynet.be/hermandw/sf/pezhis1.html . In it the author suggests that Asimov was going to follow Toynbee's thesis of the rise and fall of civilizations, to whit:

quote: In the spring of 1944 Asimov's friend, colleague and fellow Navy Yard employee L. Sprague de Camp lent him the first volume of Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History. Toynbee held that the history of every civilization followed a certain fixed pattern. The details of each civilization might differ, but the broad outlines remained the same for every civilization. When Asimov began his next Foundation story, "Dead Hand", Toynbee's historical theories were on his mind.

But then, Asimov changed his mind:

quote: Meanwhile, as Asimov continued to read A Study of History, his admiration for Toynbee's historical theories waned. It seemed to him that Toynbee was essentially a classical and Christian scholar, and the order he found in history was an imposed one produced by his seeing reflections of classical history wherever he looked. Subsequent Foundation stories were generally free of Toynbee's influence.

Not having read Toynbee (just about him) I am unable to say whether this guy is remarkably astute or dropping names for his theses.

	03-03-2003 02:39									#28
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By the end of the trilogy, the implications are fairly clear: great men are not exactly self-made, they are chosen by the Second Foundation to lead the First.

Does the series portray it as the right outcome? I recall this being combatted in the later books.

	03-03-2003 09:41									#29
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I'd argue that the people who eventually find the solutions to the Seldon Crises are bound to come into being. Seldon knew that given he conditions of Terminus and the Empire, certain problems would arise.

He altered the conditions just enough that the environment would produce characters who would be able to solve the situations that came to pass. If these people had not been there, the Seldon Plan would have failed, but it was inherent in the Seldon Plan that these people would be there

While they still had to be great people to do what they did, if those individuals had not been there, others of equal ability would have been, as this was how the Seldon Plan was supposed to work.

Seldon's psychohistory followed the path of the masses, but it is a select few individuals within the mass that actually make it do something. Without a leader's impetus, it just sits there and takes up space.

	03-03-2003 11:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo By the end of the trilogy, the implications are fairly clear: great men are not exactly self-made, they are chosen by the Second Foundation to lead the First. Does the series portray it as the right outcome? I recall this being combatted in the later books.

The dispute between the two Foundations come up, but

spoiler(highlight to read): ...the Second Foundation manipulates the First into thinking that the Second has been destroyed.