01-03-2003 19:27									#1
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If your government declared a "state of emergency" after a nuclear bomb exploded in a biggest city in your country, and told you to join the unit which will collect all the muslims in the town because they present a "terrorist" threat and send them in a " containment camp" (and you are guranteed that they will be treated fairly there) - would you do it, or refuse and risk being jailed or executed as a traitor?

	01-03-2003 19:37									#2
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hmm, "good treatment" eh? reminds me of that bit in the South Park film.

"All Canadians are to report to these death camps immediately, did I say death camps? I meant Happy Camps!"

I'd say no I wouldn't. I doubt the British govt. would start executing people for that though after a nuke went off, who'd know what would happen... Why they'd get civilians doing the police's/armies' job I dunno.

	01-03-2003 19:41									#3
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I'd say it's time for a revolution.

Option 2.

	01-03-2003 19:43									#4
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Opt. 3, I suppose. I would never participate in such a thing, but I wouldn't want to just refuse if it meant certain death. So I'd do my best to flee the country if it were in the hands of a such a tyrannical regime.

Opt. 4 would have been better had it not included killing the messenger. I couldn't do that, either.

	01-03-2003 19:49									#5
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Of course, I would oppose it. Esp. if it is in the current intl. balance of power.

	01-03-2003 19:51									#6
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About starting a guerilla uprising:

Yes, probably. But that depends on other sircumstances, as well.

	01-03-2003 19:52									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel "All Canadians are to report to these death camps immediately, did I say death camps? I meant Happy Camps!" .

Exactly!


Well as for option 4 that means you will have to kill those who chose option 1 as you will be their official enemy (and they will try to kill you), so why not shoot the messenger straight and have one less to deal with later ( an old revolutionary rethoric ) However if you fell like more go into the opposition after saying yes (rather than fleeing, choose option 4 again, because you will have to kill the official line sooner or later)

I would probably be option 3 if my family is still OK - I'd say fcuk this lets go to Australia if they are still normal there. ( as that would be the best for me personally), but if my family was hurt by the government reasioning (or even the nuke attack) than option 4.


edit: well I should have that 5th option - say yes but join the guerilla opposition when first opportunity arises those who feel that way should still opt for option 4 as it is morally the closest (from my perspetive).

basically option 1 trusts the government or the authority, option 2 have their own moral values regardless of the authority and are willing to suffer for beleiving in them without imposing them on others, option 3 are ambigous people who want to do what is the best for themselves, and option 4 are the people who have their moral values and believe that they should be put in place no matter what the price of it to them or others.

	01-03-2003 20:01									#8
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quote: Well as for option 4 that means you will have to kill those who chose option 1 as you will be their official enemy (and they will try to kill you), so why not shoot the messenger straight and have one less to deal with later

If you go on killing people who are just supporters, you'll be hated by the masses.

	01-03-2003 20:04									#9
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I'd be the first to join that unit.

	01-03-2003 20:07									#10
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You'll be doing that eventually, when armed forces clash. Makes very little difference.

	01-03-2003 20:16									#11
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave option 3 are ambigous people who want to do what is the best for themselves

I disagree. Einstein was neither ambiguous nor did what was only best for himself. Neither did Otto Klemperer, Bruno Walter, etc. These people fled Nazi Germany because they believed the government was wrong and that there was no power to fight it internally.

One can do a lot of things outside of a country to continue to resist its regime.

	01-03-2003 20:19									#12
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If you flee the country, your influence and actions become severely limited.

	01-03-2003 20:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If you flee the country, your influence and actions become severely limited.

Many prominent Germans who fled wrote passionately against the Nazis, and helped garner more international support for the Allied war effort, as well as bring to light the oppressive acts of the government.

	01-03-2003 20:22									#14
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I'd join.

	01-03-2003 20:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I disagree. Einstein was neither ambiguous nor did what was only best for himself. Neither did Otto Klemperer, Bruno Walter, etc. These people fled Nazi Germany because they believed the government was wrong and that there was no power to fight it internally. One can do a lot of things outside of a country to continue to resist its regime.

It is true what you say, but it is true that this option is the safest for the person involved. So that's why it's in, still I am sure if you fled the country that you will work in any way available to you to bring a change for the better if you can, still this is the safest option personally if you are not preapared to do option 1. (which is safer), as noone will actually oppose you as you are dealing with former immigrants only with government backing you up.

	02-03-2003 05:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If you flee the country, your influence and actions become severely limited.

Although their actions would be less limited than those who stayed and were slaughtered.

	02-03-2003 05:57									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Opt. 3, I suppose. I would never participate in such a thing, but I wouldn't want to just refuse if it meant certain death. So I'd do my best to flee the country if it were in the hands of a such a tyrannical regime. Opt. 4 would have been better had it not included killing the messenger. I couldn't do that, either.

Option 4.

The messenger is an accomplice in war crimes. Revolutionary justice+legitimate act of resistance

	02-03-2003 06:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Option 4. The messenger is an accomplice in war crimes. Revolutionary justice+legitimate act of resistance

Except that I don't want to kill anybody.

	02-03-2003 06:00									#19
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quote: If you go on killing people who are just supporters, you'll be hated by the masses.

He's not just a supporter; he's an active agent for immoral government activities, and a recruiter for your enemy. He's both a legitimate target as part of a campaign to protect the populace from tyranny and also a legitimate military target for his role in recruiting.

	02-03-2003 06:00									#20
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Yes, but only if I can shoot a machine gun out of a dune buggy.

	02-03-2003 06:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Except that I don't want to kill anybody.

A guerilla campaign usually involves killing people, as does any military action.

Are you an absolute pacifist?

	02-03-2003 06:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger A guerilla campaign usually involves killing people, as does any military action. Are you an absolute pacifist?

Not absolute, of course. But I would only kill someone if they were directly attempting to kill/harm me or someone else in that moment.

So if I were in a warfare scenario, I could kill an enemy soldier, as it is kill-or-be-killed. I think I would hate it immensely, though.

	02-03-2003 06:07									#23
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This is kind of wierd. If I refuse I get shot? Obviously if they are going to shoot people for not joining then they are lying about not harming the people in the camps. I would try not to get shot, but I would look for opportinities where I could do something significant to stop the fascists.

	02-03-2003 06:09									#24
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It also usually involves killing people not directly threatening your existence at that very moment, but who have declared their intention to aid your enemy in doing so (by either actually joining the military or becoming a de facto extension of the military.

In addition, say you're a guerilla operating in 1957 Cuba. You know that the mayor of a town is responsible for the continuing kidnapping, torture and murder of ordinary citizens on a wholesale basis. You know he'll keep it up unless you stop him, and the only way to stop him for now (until you eventually win the war) is to assassinate him (since imprisonment is not an option, given that you have no fixed bases and no resources to set up jails). Do you kill him?

	02-03-2003 06:11									#25
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I would say OK but then escape... maybe smuggle some Muslims over the border.

	02-03-2003 06:12									#26
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If I needed time to plan I'd say yes before going underground.

	02-03-2003 06:18									#27
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Tough to say for certain exactly what I'd do, but my first inclination is that I'd probably go moderately apeshit on whichever extension of the federal government was most near at hand, and then make things up as I went along then there on out. It's difficult to say exactly how apeshit I'd go, though -- I never really know until it happens.

	02-03-2003 06:33									#28
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If a refusal means death, I would join. Only the living can affect the world. I would say yes and secretly sabbotage the effort.

BTW, how do we know the bomb is set off by Muslims?

	02-03-2003 06:36									#29
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mmm..."The Siege"

	02-03-2003 06:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger It also usually involves killing people not directly threatening your existence at that very moment, but who have declared their intention to aid your enemy in doing so (by either actually joining the military or becoming a de facto extension of the military. In addition, say you're a guerilla operating in 1957 Cuba. You know that the mayor of a town is responsible for the continuing kidnapping, torture and murder of ordinary citizens on a wholesale basis. You know he'll keep it up unless you stop him, and the only way to stop him for now (until you eventually win the war) is to assassinate him (since imprisonment is not an option, given that you have no fixed bases and no resources to set up jails). Do you kill him?

I could just refuse to answer on the basis that I'm not in such a situation and likely never will be, so it's just a waste of time.

But if I knew for certain he was a horrible bastard and my killing him would save lives, and there were no other way to stop him, I'd probably bring myself to do it.

That's a far cry, however, from killing a messenger. It would be just as easy to lie to him, or maybe if worst comes to worst knock him out and then flee to a guerilla group.