02-03-2003 02:52									#1
	A Petition for a Re-Start due to Patch 1.21f Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd like to have everyones take on this issue since it is one that has to do with possible cheating on one side or another.

With this new patch a lot of cheats have been fixed, new ones have yet to show up, though I doubt there will be any.

How many of us here would like our Consuls to approach the other teams with this possiblility?

	02-03-2003 02:54									#2
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Hmmm...

I'd say go for it. The less cheats the better. I don't want to sound like a whiner or anything (due to our start position), so I'll leave this up to other people.

Add my name to the list though.

	02-03-2003 03:08									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If teams are going to cheat, it's there for the taking with or without the patch. Sorry... this just sounds like a 'we want a better start' plea, and just making it would come off that way. We don't want to be giving other teams an idea that we are in a weak position.

	02-03-2003 03:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If teams are going to cheat, it's there for the taking with or without the patch. Sorry... this just sounds like a 'we want a better start' plea, and just making it would come off that way. We don't want to be giving other teams an idea that we are in a weak position.

I've tested the cheats that used to be there, they are no longer. Even Gramphos' Editor asks for a password to look at the save file. People may find a way around it, but I'd like to prevent some loser being able to do it with ease.

	02-03-2003 03:16									#5
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Are the accidental "wow there's the other team's starting location because I loaded a save game" bug gone?

	02-03-2003 03:59									#6
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The map information in save files is rather easy to extract. I'd be highly suprised if at least a few members of each team don't have this sort of technical capability.

If someone else suggests a restart, I wouldn't mind going along with it. I know I'd consider that team as likely having some motive other than just fair play though. I don't want us to be seen as that team.

-----------

On a side note, we should all ally against Firaxis for not telling us that the patch was forthcoming so we could delay the start...

	02-03-2003 04:18									#7
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Do I not understand?

The patch only works for the US version.

	02-03-2003 04:23									#8
	Remove this text

I agree with this, and I don't think our start looks that bad yet. The only-US issue is a big one, however. However, surely the European version is only a week or so away (how different can it be?), and as long as our Consuls are sorted we can rely on screenshots easily ATM.

Ally against Firaxis? WOOHOO!

	02-03-2003 04:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Do I not understand? The patch only works for the US version.

That's correct.

	02-03-2003 04:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I agree with this, and I don't think our start looks that bad yet. The only-US issue is a big one, however. However, surely the European version is only a week or so away (how different can it be?), and as long as our Consuls are sorted we can rely on screenshots easily ATM. Ally against Firaxis? WOOHOO!

It could be a very long time. Was months and months for the Spanish patch, IIRC.

However, a lot of the Euros have the American version anyways, so it may not be a problem. I know for a fact that much of the German team has the American version, and not the German one.

	02-03-2003 04:25									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip Are the accidental "wow there's the other team's starting location because I loaded a save game" bug gone?

Yes, it's gone! The screen is complete black now.

	02-03-2003 04:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Yes, it's gone! The screen is complete black now.

It's time to upgrade.

	02-03-2003 04:30									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, either we confirm that at least 1-2 players on each team has the US version and we patch, or the US teams have to get 1-2 players to volunteer not to patch.

Is someone going to take this discussion to the UN?

	02-03-2003 04:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Well, either we confirm that at least 1-2 players on each team has the US version and we patch, or the US teams have to get 1-2 players to volunteer not to patch. Is someone going to take this discussion to the UN?

That's what this poll is for; generally.

	02-03-2003 07:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Is someone going to take this discussion to the UN?

I am standing by. If we want to take the re-start proposal to the UN, would one of the consuls please give me the nod. The last I checked - there was a discussion thread for the new patch - but only regarding converting the current game. If we feel strongly about a re-start, I will take that position to the UN.

.... Beta.

	02-03-2003 07:47									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

Posted by Soren J. of Firaxis at the UN in response to discussion on the compatibality, or lack therof, of the patch with non-US versions of PTW:

Re: New patch : 1.21f
Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 1:51:40 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

unless everyone is able to upgrade, we should wait. they are different executables after all (for example, a scientific civ might get different tech when a new era is reached...)

	02-03-2003 08:16									#17
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RESTART!

It is now officially the ambassadors' job to make the case to the UN that the effets of the new patch on MP are too great to continue playing the current game, therefore we must restart. We have to blind everyone else to the possibility that things could be worked out when everyone finally gets the patch and applies it (I'm not sure if this is true). We must be very convincing on this matter.

Why?

Because I'm not big on our start location. But let us not let anyone else know this until the new game begins...

RESTART!


Dominae

	02-03-2003 09:35									#18
	Got spare money?

New Patch = Less Bugs = Less Cheats = Good

Not that any team would cheat, but it always looks good to support moving to a new patch. Besides, it's not like we've done anything big anyways. Restart won't be tough. (I think. )

	02-03-2003 09:49									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I can confirm that the patch works with the version released in Oz/NZ.

Consuls? What are your thoughts?

	02-03-2003 09:52									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Restart, because the current version is already tainted. That and the fact that some of the teams might have slipped up already.

	02-03-2003 13:14									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

exactly what loopholes and cheats does this patch fix?

	02-03-2003 13:17									#22
	Put an end to popups!

in any case. I don't want to push too hard for this, because it will look like we are in a bad position.

But we should put the matter up to vote by all the teams.

	02-03-2003 13:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident in any case. I don't want to push too hard for this, because it will look like we are in a bad position. But we should put the matter up to vote by all the teams.

If we get Firaxis to back a re-start we shouldn't have any problems getting the others on board. So lets get to work on Soren!

	02-03-2003 15:22									#24
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Is the new patch incompatible with the old saves? If not, why restart? Just upgrade to the new version and continue.

	02-03-2003 15:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Is the new patch incompatible with the old saves? If not, why restart? Just upgrade to the new version and continue.

Because you're still working with a save file that could have already been exploited, either by accident or purposefully.

	02-03-2003 15:35									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Is the new patch incompatible with the old saves? If not, why restart? Just upgrade to the new version and continue.

Are you asking "Why are you asking for a re-start?"

It's only because cheating, even on accident, can happen, and that cheating could've already taken place. There's no way to know for sure if another team will stoop to this level or some of it's team members (and they influence the decisions of the people running the actual game turns).

If we continue, even with everyone updated to the new patch, the possible cheater's still have access to the entire World map (including all resource tile whereabouts) and the start locations of every Civ.

If we have a re-start there will be no way (known by us now) for anyone to view the map or know of anyones start location. The new patch strips the cheats out of the game.

The 'old' map (current game) could've been viewed by anyone in it's entirety.

The 'new' map (on a re-start) can not.

	02-03-2003 15:37									#27
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Just for the record, people can still use the "load PBEM game while in the middle of another game" exploit to see other civs' start locations, but that's the only identified exploit still around.

	02-03-2003 16:08									#28
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You're right Trip.
When I tried doing it earlier (finding an exploit in the newly patched game), I couldn't get one through the MP screen as I could before.

Now you just load up a normal SP game, then select a PBEM game to load and you are randomly cycled through the different Civ's you set up for the PBEM game. After a turn with one Civ you are sort of 'teleported' to the other Civ to play their turn as well. Sometimes the game will 'lock in' on one Civ and you'll no longer 'teleport' among the Civ's, but it seems to be random (as far as when it stops teleporting you), I've tested this many times now. One could play the game as one of the Civ's, until the map is revealed, and use that information in the PBEM game.

I'm glad Firaxis got rid of the other bugs; but they could've addressed this one as well since it was relatively well known to most folks who play PBEM games. I'm sure that Firaxis was notified about this a while back .

This is frustrating to say the least.

	02-03-2003 20:26									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Trip It could be a very long time. Was months and months for the Spanish patch, IIRC. However, a lot of the Euros have the American version anyways, so it may not be a problem. I know for a fact that much of the German team has the American version, and not the German one.

That thing we are not allowed to talk about on apolyton works too. At least it did for 1.14.

The reason a european patch is needed, is because Infogrames, in all it's wisdom, decided to use a different copy protection for the euro version.

	02-03-2003 21:10									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with Aeson: if teams are going to cheat, they will do it somehow, with ot without the patch. This would sound like we are desperate to start again because of a not so great starting position.