02-03-2003 09:00									#1
	Hardline Fundamentalists claim decisive victory in Persian elections Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Local elections in Iran have delivered a major boost to Islamic conservatives in the country, initial results show.

According to partial counts, conservative candidates are set to win 14 out of 15 council seats in the capital Tehran, Iran's state IRNA news agency quoted the city's governor as saying.

This would be a blow to reformist President Mohammad Khatami, for whom the nationwide city and village council elections have been seen as a test of his six years in office.

However the turnout in Tehran was low, only around 25 percent, indicating disillusionment with politics and the slow pace of change in the country.

One electoral official quoted by IRNA said turnout in the city may have been as little as 15 percent.

Around the country, people went to the polls on Friday to elect 905 city councils and 34,205 village councils.

Public frustration

Recent elections in Iran have been regarded as a test of strength between reformists and hardliners.

But as public frustration over the pace of reform grows, this poll was seen as a kind of referendum on the popularity of the president and his programme of peaceful and legal reform.

It is the second time elections of this type have taken place. They were introduced in 1999 as part of President Khatami's concept of a civil society at the grassroots level.

After casting his vote in the capital, the president called on all Iranians to take part, saying they were the basis of democracy.

Unlike presidential and parliamentary elections, candidates are not screened by the conservative dominated guardian council. Instead, they are approved by an election board at the interior ministry, now dominated by reformers.

This year a wider pool of names were admitted in the ballot, including several liberal dissidents from the liberal opposition Iran Freedom Movement, which was banned by a court last July.

Many of the estimated 41 million eligible voters are under the age of 30. They feel disillusioned at the rate of change and believe that by taking part means an acceptance of the system, something which many are now no longer prepared to do.

Some conservative groups called on their followers to stay away hoping to show that Mr Khatami's policies have failed.

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Could this be a harbinger of future conflict between Persia and the USA? Could these Islamic hardliners even play a role in trying to seize Shi'ite territories when the US invades Iraq? Keep in mind that Persia has already moved troops into certain areas of Iraq.
I think this could only spell trouble, as the apparent defeat of democratic reformers can only help give Bush a reason to invade.

	02-03-2003 09:06									#2
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It's Iran. Iran, for pete's sake. Stop calling it Persia.

	02-03-2003 09:06									#3
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Yep, thanks to the idiocy of the foreign policy of the Iroquois Confederacy, the Persian reformists have lost credibility with respect to the hardline Zoroastrians.

	02-03-2003 09:08									#4
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Invade with what would be the operative question? Contrary to rumor, we don't have any of those stealth army divisions.

Khomeini's fundies started operating in Iraq the moment Khomeini seized power, and that was one of the main reasons Saddam attacked Iran - Iraqi officials assassinated, sedition in the mosques, etc.

	02-03-2003 09:10									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's Iran. Iran, for pete's sake. Stop calling it Persia.

Never!!! I'll fight till from my bones my flesh be hack'd.

	02-03-2003 09:13									#6
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There's no point in voting if the hardliners keep vetoing everything you try and impliment. Those upset with how things are going in Iran are just tired and frustrated and see no point in bothering to vote.

	02-03-2003 09:18									#7
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You know the rules of the Game. Persia can't get from Fundamentalism to Democracy without a revolution. And it won't be a breeze, since their Civ isn't religious. Khatami gotta push harder if he wants this delicious +1 commerce

	02-03-2003 10:08									#8
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I had hoped the "Persian" youth would stay in their idealistic mode a little longer....if they just make the jump straight to Western style cyniscism and decadence with no intervening period of idealism they won't gain anything.

	02-03-2003 10:12									#9
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I don't think that it has been called Persia for over a century.

	02-03-2003 10:16									#10
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DinoD- I think it was offically changed to Iran in 1937, but then in 1949 the government said either were acceptable. I don't think there has been any policy chance on this since then.
I think Persia is better for two reasons.
1. It is cooler
2. As a matter of pragmatism, Iran is too similar to Iraq.

	02-03-2003 10:37									#11
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quote: You know the rules of the Game. Persia can't get from Fundamentalism to Democracy without a revolution. And it won't be a breeze, since their Civ isn't religious. Khatami gotta push harder if he wants this delicious +1 commerce

And Khomeini increases personal luxuries to 60%, and the people incite, "we love the Ayatollah day."

NO revolution, and trade increases to Democratic levels.

	02-03-2003 10:46									#12
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Chegitz has the correct analysis. Iranians did not suddenly change from Liberal Secularists to hardline fundamentalists overnight because they don't like Bush. The Khatami administration has been ineffective at getting reform passed, so it makes no sense for reformists to try work within the system. Hence they boycott the polls. Hopefully now they will try working outside the system to undermine it.

	02-03-2003 10:58									#13
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And by the way, Iran refers to the geographic name of the area. Persia refers to the dominant ethnic group, the Persians, but there are ethnic minorities. Persia is a racist name to call the country.

	02-03-2003 11:08									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You know the rules of the Game. Persia can't get from Fundamentalism to Democracy without a revolution. And it won't be a breeze, since their Civ isn't religious. Khatami gotta push harder if he wants this delicious +1 commerce

I believe they are doing better with Fundamentalism right now; large numbers of Fanatics and other free troops are more important than normal research, if you possibly have to kill an American invasion in the near future.

	02-03-2003 11:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Persia is a racist name to call the country.

It was posts like these that gave Political Correctness a bad name.

	02-03-2003 11:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi And by the way, Iran refers to the geographic name of the area. Persia refers to the dominant ethnic group, the Persians, but there are ethnic minorities. Persia is a racist name to call the country.

Good one Shi, I'll bite.
I suppose, Russia, Germany, France, and so forth are racist names as well, no?

	02-03-2003 11:30									#17
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quote: And by the way, Iran refers to the geographic name of the area. Persia refers to the dominant ethnic group, the Persians, but there are ethnic minorities. Persia is a racist name to call the country.

You have it backwards. Iran (as in Aryan) refers to the ethnic group of Indo-Europeans that settled in "Persia" and surrounding areas. Persia (as in Persis or Pars) refers to a geographic region.

	02-03-2003 12:34									#18
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I find Iran more helpful because it allows one to differentiate between ancient Persia (which was totally different and a much bigger area) and...well...Iran. But my real reason for posting is this random comment on the pressingly important matter of Iran's name:

quote: "I think we should take Iraq and Iran and combine them into one country and call it Irate. All the pissed off people live in one place and get it over with." --Denis Leary

	02-03-2003 12:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker I had hoped the "Persian" youth would stay in their idealistic mode a little longer....if they just make the jump straight to Western style cyniscism and decadence with no intervening period of idealism they won't gain anything.

Yeah, they don't even have a representative government yet. They gotta have that for a century or two before they're allowed to become decadent and stop voting in droves.

Gatekeeper

	02-03-2003 13:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi And by the way, Iran refers to the geographic name of the area. Persia refers to the dominant ethnic group, the Persians, but there are ethnic minorities. Persia is a racist name to call the country.

And would Turkey be Anatolia or Asia Minor.

I like Asia Minor. It's demeaning. Puts a barbaric country in its place.

	02-03-2003 13:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X And would Turkey be Anatolia or Asia Minor. I like Asia Minor. It's demeaning. Puts a barbaric country in its place.

If they refuse to cooperate with the war, maybe we should switch their name to that on the map

Ramo: You are wrong. The region is the Iranian plateau. Persian is an ethnic group

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...ook/geos/ir.htm

quote: Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%

monkspider: "I suppose, Russia, Germany, France, and so forth are racist names as well, no?"

I think was admirable of them to change their country's name so it doesn't indicate supremacy of one of the ethnic groups.

	02-03-2003 13:20									#22
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Damnit, I can't get a rise out of BD to save my life.

	02-03-2003 13:27									#23
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quote: Ramo: You are wrong. The region is the Iranian plateau. Persian is an ethnic group

Look at the etymology. The state Persia adopted Iran as an assertion of nationalism. Iran is derived from Aryan. Persia's etymology is connected to the city Persis and the province Pars. It could be that there's a backlash against tying people to being "Aryans" due to the Nazis' use of the word, etc., but this is history.

	02-03-2003 14:30									#24
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I thought both Iran and Iraq together are Persia.

	02-03-2003 17:32									#25
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Aren't Iraqis mostly Arabs ?

	02-03-2003 17:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 And Khomeini increases personal luxuries to 60%, and the people incite, "we love the Ayatollah day." NO revolution, and trade increases to Democratic levels.

You're right, I forgot this. I need to play Civ2 from time to time I guess

	02-03-2003 18:34									#27
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Dubya prefers Persia, because he's never been able to understand why Iraq is sometimes spelled with a q and sometimes with an n.

	02-03-2003 21:19									#28
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Let's just call them the Safavids!

	02-03-2003 23:17									#29
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MtG -

quote: Khomeini's fundies started operating in Iraq the moment Khomeini seized power, and that was one of the main reasons Saddam attacked Iran - Iraqi officials assassinated, sedition in the mosques, etc.

Can you clarify this? I read Iraq was still fuming over having to give up a waterway in southern Iraq to Iran under the Shah back in 1975 to get the Iranians to stop supporting a Kurdish rebellion. The land "grant" from Iraq to Iran effectively shut off Iraq's access to the Persian Gulf.

	02-03-2003 23:40									#30
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quote: I think was admirable of them to change their country's name so it doesn't indicate supremacy of one of the ethnic groups

"France" not indicating the supremacy of an ethnic group? I always thought it came from "Franks"... All the rest are just ways to bring the country together, like "What we have in common".