05-03-2003 20:49									#61
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Said the pot to the kettle.

	05-03-2003 21:13									#62
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I believe most of us want what's best for the country. We just differ slightly (mostly radically) on what that is. I respect che's and others opinion. Some on here however are either being extremely selfish because they have no other cause but themselves or some that are using events to trash talk because that's all they can do.

	05-03-2003 21:16									#63
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Listen. I'm not as far "Right" as I appear.
Someone has to make some attempt to balance the scales though.

	05-03-2003 21:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Listen. I'm not as far "Right" as I appear.

A man who understand the joy of a Breyer's Natural Vanilla Ice Cream Shake isn't all bad, which is why I have restrained from replying to you in kind.

	05-03-2003 21:27									#65
	Re: What Do You Think Of The Troops Overseas? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Just in case there were any doubts about everyone's opinion. What do you think of the men and women who are over there or going over there to fight? Not Bush. Not Republicans. But the real life people that are over there. There are lots of different kinds of people over there. Doctors, Lawyers, Factory workers, Teachers, Construction Workers Cops, Firefighers. There are lots of fathers, sons, daugthers, sisters, brothers, moms. Despite popular opinion, there are plenty of democratics, Libertarians, and Independents. No need for a poll with complicated headings. Just say what you feel. Do you blame them? How would you treat them if you came up on one? Do you look down on them? Do you look up to them? Do you know someone over there? What is your idea of what one looks like? There are lots of things going through my mind tonight. Some of my unit won't be going over there for various reasons. Too old, or health issues that doesn't affect them but by technicalities make them ineligible for deployment. All of those that won't be going expressed regret that they were kept out. No one wants to go but no one seems to want to be left behind. I'm just interested in some of the opinions here.

I believe there are there to murder inocent women and children for nothing more than oil. Or primarily oil.
I believe that there's no justification for that or excuse.

Of course the responsibility is climaxing. Meaning that the president of a country bares much more responsibility than a soldier of that country.

I think they are fooled in believeing that what they are doing is good, or they aren't but they just don't care eitherway.


As to how I feel about them, they are there to kill for oil and no amount of nice dressing is not going to change that.

I have no feelings of sympathy if they are killed or ifthey are someone's daughter or son. They are attacking.
On the contrary I feel much sympathy for the inocent Iraqi mothers and children that will be massacred by their bombs.

So no, no sympathy whatsoever.

That is the general feeling, feelings on a personal level are of course different.

	05-03-2003 21:28									#66
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Now you two give each other a big manly hug and go enjoy a shake

	05-03-2003 21:48									#67
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quote: Oh bullshit. The only war that had much to do with freedom for Americans was the revolution.

I meant it was the ppl who are willing to fight.

I don't remember the stats, but I remember that a small % of "americans" actually faught in the revolution. Yet, it is this small % that we owe our freedoms to.

	05-03-2003 21:49									#68
	Re: Re: What Do You Think Of The Troops Overseas? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I believe there are there to murder inocent women and children for nothing more than oil. Or primarily oil. I believe that there's no justification for that or excuse. Of course the responsibility is climaxing. Meaning that the president of a country bares much more responsibility than a soldier of that country. I think they are fooled in believeing that what they are doing is good, or they aren't but they just don't care eitherway. As to how I feel about them, they are there to kill for oil and no amount of nice dressing is not going to change that. I have no feelings of sympathy if they are killed or ifthey are someone's daughter or son. They are attacking. On the contrary I feel much sympathy for the inocent Iraqi mothers and children that will be massacred by their bombs. So no, no sympathy whatsoever. That is the general feeling, feelings on a personal level are of course different.

If you sincerly believe in such a simple and narrow view of the situation than there is nothing anyone can say or do to change your mind. When a postion such as this is allowed to develop, you limit yourself greatly in how you can grow in your understanding of the supposedly evil country. Weither it comes from 1970's Iran or 1950's Marcarthyism, it only leads to a dim and narrow view of events. It's sad that you think this way cause I think you really are a pretty cool person otherwise. America may not be the shinning example of perfection, but it's hardly anywhere near the evil imperialist power you apparently believe.

	05-03-2003 22:03									#69
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paiktis has his days. Kind of like Zylka.
Mood swings.
Women are infamous for them.

	05-03-2003 22:13									#70
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Sloww better check your cornbread

I am always loyal to my ideas unless untill and if facts change them. Sometimes I let them be known, other times I just post songs

Spray, I don't believe the US is "evil", that term in itself means nothing to me, I just say it like it is (to me and many, many others) . You know I wish you a safe return and nothing to happen to you. But that doesn't change the brutal reality of what is going to happen. (almost certaintly if the US attacks).

	06-03-2003 02:56									#71
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quote: I don't remember the stats, but I remember that a small % of "americans" actually faught in the revolution. Yet, it is this small % that we owe our freedoms to.

Then don't imply that the soldiers today have anything in common with the people who fought the revolution. They aren't fighting for my freedom, or anyone else's, they're fighting for what Bush judges to be in the national interest of the US, which, in this case, means getting another puppet state in the MidEast, and, by the way, enhancing the US's ability to **** with people.

	06-03-2003 03:22									#72
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And ignorance rears it's ugly head.


Say, Davy. You're into martial arts.
Is that a pacifist activity? No. Don't reference Cain.

	06-03-2003 03:38									#73
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quote: And ignorance rears it's ugly head.

Wanna have an IQ contest? I doubt you'll win.

quote: Say, Davy. You're into martial arts.

Yes, and if you want to have some other type of contest, I doubt you'll win that one either, so **** off.

BTW, who ever said I was a pacifist? I'm not.

	06-03-2003 03:43									#74
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I wouldn't call it ignorance, we know Dave is smart.

I don't know what to call it... arrogance?

Anyway, he is entitled to his own view point and I will respect that. Of course he is keeping it real more than I am; I will support them and admire them, but the minute they ask me to pick up a gun and go war they will find me Mexico (yes, over Canada).

I guess I am against the draft, but I am not against war, or even "preemptive" strikes. American interest is freedom, whether it be for our own, others, or that of that crude oil that is being unlawfully trapped under an evil dictator
.

	06-03-2003 03:48									#75
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Anytime, on either one, David.
Bring it.

	06-03-2003 03:48									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber And yes we all chose to do this. So for those who only complain, we won't ask for your help. Just sit back in your chair and watch us on TV. For those of you who can disagree and still maintain some civility, I do respect your opinions.

What is your MOS and unit Sprayber? I am just curious.

quote: BTW. my mother has informed me that she will not vote for Bush next election. Sending her child to fight was the last straw

My mother didnt sleep but a few hours per night for the 6 months I was overseas. It was torture for her.

Rules for deploying overseas:

Make sure you write your mom alot, and/or use those satellite phones. And no matter what, always say you are far from danger and everything is OK. She'll probably know better, but you are supposed to lie to your mom in these instances.

	06-03-2003 03:51									#77
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quote: Anytime, on either one, David. Bring it.

Well, seeing as how I've out-argued you every time you've ever bothered to debate me, I'm not incredibly worried.

	06-03-2003 03:51									#78
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Sloww, chill man. No need to burst a vessel over this.

	06-03-2003 03:56									#79
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I'd just as soon kill David as look at him.*
No bursting vessels involved.
The I.Q. bit? Floyd would be shocked, as many might.






*It's at this point that Sloww prays fervently that nothing happens to Floyd, or someone will push that exclamation mark.

	06-03-2003 03:59									#80
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quote: I'd just as soon kill David as look at him

Why do you want to kill me? I don't want to kill YOU. Well, you know roughly where I live, and with a bit of detective work could probably pinpoint an address. *shrug*

quote: The I.Q. bit? Floyd would be shocked, as many might.

Maybe you are pretty smart. I don't know you in real life - it's just that you're debate participation hasn't, shall we say, been up to snuff. A bunch of ad hominems and nationalism don't make an argument - see, those take actual arguments and supportable positions.

	06-03-2003 04:02									#81
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Yo mean like your slams against the people in uniform?
Gotcha. I'll certainly try to upgrade my reasoning.

	06-03-2003 04:04									#82
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What slams did I make against people in uniform? I slammed their decision to join an aggressive and imperialistic organization, but I have no personal problem with people I've never met.

But in any case, if I wanted to actually slam them, I would have a much better argument for doing that than I would for looking up to them and revering them - certainly in this case.

	06-03-2003 04:05									#83
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Maybe you are pretty smart. I don't know you in real life - it's just that you're debate participation hasn't, shall we say, been up to snuff. A bunch of ad hominems and nationalism don't make an argument - see, those take actual arguments and supportable positions.

Sorry, but I've seen some of your "arguments" here...

	06-03-2003 04:06									#84
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Yes, and I've also seen your rebuttals of my arguments. Oh, wait, gee I must have missed those

	06-03-2003 04:11									#85
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Are you beginning to get the picture, Joe ?

Do you have a wooden post?
One might as well argue with that.

	06-03-2003 04:15									#86
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I have never bothered to respond to any of his posts at any forum.

Not gonna start now either.

	06-03-2003 04:17									#87
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Then I'll thank you not to criticize my arguments. If you want to disagree with me, fine, post some arguments, to which I will thoroughly respond - or, at least, respond with the thoroughness demanded by the arguments.

That goes for both of you. If you can't - or won't - shoot me down in a logical and consistent manner, don't shoot ad hominems my direction. It makes you look ridiculous.

	06-03-2003 04:28									#88
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quote: Then I'll thank you not to criticize my arguments. If you want to disagree with me, fine, post some arguments, to which I will thoroughly respond - or, at least, respond with the thoroughness demanded by the arguments.

Good way to put it. I feel that I have been getting the same thing from Beserker on the Pledge thread, and it is annoying. I don't mind it, but at least give your arguments some butter. "Neaner", doesn't always cut it with ppl like David.... It works for me though.

	06-03-2003 04:29									#89
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Then don't imply that the soldiers today have anything in common with the people who fought the revolution. They aren't fighting for my freedom, or anyone else's, they're fighting for what Bush judges to be in the national interest of the US, which, in this case, means getting another puppet state in the MidEast, and, by the way, enhancing the US's ability to **** with people.

So, you think that people who have been in the service, are still in the service because of who the president is? And what his policies are?

Maybe, just maybe some people fell the need to protect the freedoms that you take for granted David. Did you think of that?

Do you think that this country would be safer with no military?

Most soldiers today, do have something in common with the people who fought in the revolution, they believe in freedom and this country.

You say our military is an offensive military.

You're right.

I would rather project power and death on my enemies, than wait for them to come to my country to inflict pain and suffering.

	06-03-2003 04:34									#90
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quote: So, you think that people who have been in the service, are still in the service because of who the president is? And what his policies are?

I don't know. But the US militarist policies have been similarly aggressive and imperialistic for years.

quote: Maybe, just maybe some people fell the need to protect the freedoms that you take for granted David. Did you think of that?

Sure, but there is no threat of invasion, and there would be no threat of attack if the US was not militaristic and imperialistic.

quote: Do you think that this country would be safer with no military?

Possibly.

quote: Most soldiers today, do have something in common with the people who fought in the revolution, they believe in freedom and this country.

So do I, but the difference is, I don't go take away the freedom of other people in order to try to enhance my own.

quote: I would rather project power and death on my enemies, than wait for them to come to my country to inflict pain and suffering.

Which they would never do if we were not imperialistic and aggressive.