16-05-2003 22:41									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am currently doing some extensive testing on this subject.

The tests I do are:

1. X Warriors -vs- Y Warriors (to determine the ratios)
   
2. X Spearmen -vs- Y Warriors
   
3. X Archers -vs- Y Warriors (these two are used to compute the effect of attack and defense)
   
4. X Jag Warriors -vs- Y Warriors (to compute the effect of movement points)
   
5. X Vet Warriors -vs- Y Reg Warriors (to compute the effect of combat experience)
   

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 17-05-2003 at 17:08

	16-05-2003 23:41									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

BFM, you could test for Conscript-Elite units instead of for damaged units. Also, could you please investigate fast units to see if they have any affect?

	17-05-2003 08:26									#33
	Tired of ads?

go BFM! It will be great to see your results

	17-05-2003 17:13									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

More test results coming in:

• From Test 3:
  (update) 1 Archer = 1.60 Warrior.
  
• From Test 4:
  1 Jaguar Warrior = 1 Warrior.
  ==> Movement points have no effect on Unit Value.
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-05-2003 at 02:54

	17-05-2003 18:29									#35
	Support Apolyton

• From Test 5:
  1 Vet Warrior = 1.45 Warrior Updated to 1.33 in a later test!
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 23-05-2003 at 17:39

	17-05-2003 18:32									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Next tests coming up:

1. ...
   
2. ...
   
3. ...
   
4. ...
   
5. ...
   
6. X Hoplites -vs- Y Warriors (to test the effect of the Defense Value)
   
7. X Bowmen -vs- Y Warriors (to test the combined effect of the Attack and Defense Values)
   
8. X Vet Spearmen -vs- Y Reg Warriors (to test the combined effect of Experience and the Defense Value)
   

	17-05-2003 20:27									#37
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I did a short test on this closer to when this thread first came up. I remember that archers were worth more than spearmen and didn't come up with enough detail.

But I ruled out cost as a factor.

	18-05-2003 03:04									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I noticed one strange thing here, though: 6 Vet Warriors -vs- 7 Reg Warriors: Average 18 Vet Warriors -vs- 21 Reg Warriors: Strong ...so, tripling the units on both sides gives a different result..!

I wonder if there's some kind of rounding anomaly involved.

	18-05-2003 04:50									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

BFM, how many warriors did you use for the Y (what your testing against)? I would use 100 (or even 1000), as that will help you to define your formula abit more.

No matter what, good job

E_T

	18-05-2003 07:52									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I noticed one strange thing here, though: 6 Vet Warriors -vs- 7 Reg Warriors: Average 18 Vet Warriors -vs- 21 Reg Warriors: Strong ...so, tripling the units on both sides gives a different result..!

Maybe the formula is much simpler than we think, and it does not take into account the ratio. Possibly it thinks "only one more warrior, thats average. Three more warriors, thats strong!!"

Of course, this would be disapointing if it were found to be the case; although we need to consider all of the possibilities.

	18-05-2003 08:32									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

BFM, can you check to see how bombardment units effect this score?

E_T

	18-05-2003 15:48									#42
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

hi ,

has anyone been here to take a look , .....


>>>>>> http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~soren/


have a nice day

	19-05-2003 14:38									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Haven't done any tests but from experience it looks like the AI values Attack higher than Defence and fast units over slow ones. A large army of fast attackers is often enough to dicourage the AI from declaring war.

	19-05-2003 15:51									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I wonder if there's some kind of rounding anomaly involved.

Very probable.


This is a picture the test method I used. For Test 1:



The dots are "test points". They give either Strong, Average or Weak as a result. I drew the lines in such a way that all Strong points are in the lower-left part, the Weak points are in the upper-right part, and the Average points are in the middle.

The lines happened to correspond to 125% and 80% relative army strength, respectively.

For the other tests, assuming the 125% and 80% remain constant, I multiply one of the axes of the graphs by a number N.
This N needs to be tuned by trial-and-error to get all the test points in the correct area. The slopes of the lines change accordingly (actually, the slopes of the lines remain mathematically constant, but the scale of the graph changes).

For example, I found N = 1.60 for Archers -vs- Warriors: I have to multiply the vertical axis (representing the number of Archers) by 1.60 to get it right. This works pretty well.

I tested no further than, say, 15 -vs- 20 units. But still, it gives a pretty good boundary for the three areas.

Panag - I couldn't find info relating to this subject on the site you mention. Can you direct me to it, if it is present?

	19-05-2003 15:57									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by E_T BFM, can you check to see how bombardment units effect this score?

Included!

1. ...
   
2. ...
   
3. ...
   
4. ...
   
5. ...
   
6. X Hoplites -vs- Y Warriors (to test the effect of the Defense Value)
   
7. X Bowmen -vs- Y Warriors (to test the combined effect of the Attack and Defense Values)
   
8. X Vet Spearmen -vs- Y Reg Warriors (to test the combined effect of Experience and the Defense Value)
   
9. X Warriors + Z Catapults -vs- Y Warriors (to test the effect of Bombardment Units)
   

	21-05-2003 23:57									#46
	Support Apolyton

• From Test 6:
  1 Hoplite = 2.06 Warrior.
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-05-2003 at 02:53

	22-05-2003 01:21									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

• From Test 7:
  1 Bowman = 2.08 Warrior.
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-05-2003 at 02:52

	22-05-2003 12:49									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Some more data points:

10-attack-Archer = 6.5 or 6.6 Warriors
50-attack-Archer = 30.5 or 30.6 Warriors

Last edited by DaveMcW on 22-05-2003 at 13:21

	22-05-2003 13:16									#49
	Put an end to popups!

Applying my formula, I'd get 6.4 and 30.4 respectively.

I assume you created (A-D) 10-1 and 50-1 units.

If we assume the difference is due to rounding errors, we can confirm that the unit value increases linearly with the attack value, given that the defense value remains at 1.

	22-05-2003 13:22									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

10-defense-Spearman = 4.6 or 4.7 Warriors
50-defense-Spearman = 20.6 or 20.7 Warriors

This works out to the simple formula:
0.6 * Attack + 0.4 * Defense

Can you run your spearman test with more units to see if the original is accurate? Placing units in the editor lets you work with much bigger numbers than placing them in debug mode.

	22-05-2003 13:50									#51
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Wow, you're doing some impressive research here. How do you find the time?

Will you add mobility to the research list?

	23-05-2003 01:08									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Not so fast, DaveMcW! I found the following interesting fact:

• 18 Warriors -vs- 7 Immortals: Weak
  
• 18 Warriors -vs- 7 Artificially Created "4-2" Units: Average
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 23-05-2003 at 01:50

	23-05-2003 14:24									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster 18 Warriors -vs- 7 Immortals: Weak 18 Warriors -vs- 7 Artificially Created "4-2" Units: Average Apparently, the unit value is dependent on a factor we do not know yet.

Time to throw some ideas out and see what sticks....

Maybe the unit value includes such variables as "unique unit" and "resource required". A civ that has Immortals must have access to Iron (whereas a generic 4.2 unit would be missing this flag), which implies strength and the ability to produce more powerful units in the future (although I find it hard to believe that 'potential strength' would be included)

Also, because the Immortal has the ability to put the Persians in their GA they could be valued more highly. Again, the generic 4.2 unit wouldn't have this potential. Try running the test again using a Persian Civ that has already used up its GA and whether this changes things.

	23-05-2003 15:38									#54
	Remove this text

I already thought of this, and set the flags for the "4-2" unit to exactly match the flags for the Immortal:

• Can trigger GA
  
• Available to one civ only
  
• Upgrade abilities
  
• Resource required
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-05-2003 at 02:51

	23-05-2003 16:10									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ah, OK then. Good thinking.

	23-05-2003 17:33									#56
	Tired of ads?

Finally found something! I was testing under Despotism and Monarchy. Here, it actually makes a difference how many cities you have. The number of cities determines the Army Support Cost.

For example:

• 13 Vet Warriors -vs- 15 Warriors: Strong (3 cities for the Vet party = 2 gpt* support cost)
  
• 13 Vet Warriors -vs- 15 Warriors: Average (1 city for the Vet party = 10 gpt* support cost)
  

	24-05-2003 02:44									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Using the knowledge obtained above, I had to run most tests again.

I got the following:

• 1 Archer = 1.60 Warrior
  
• 1 Spearman = 1.40 Warrior
  
• 1 Bowman = 2.02 Warrior
  
• 1 Hoplite = 1.82 Warrior
  
• 1 Immortal = 3.23 Warrior
  
• 1 NumMerc = 2.42 Warrior
  
• Veterans = 1.33 Regular
  
• Elite = 1.66 Regular
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-05-2003 at 13:03

	24-05-2003 06:56									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Great detective work!

One minor detail: ArmySupportCost should be factored in to the final calculation, not the one for individual units.

	24-05-2003 13:03									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Absolutely right. Edited above.

	24-05-2003 13:14									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is it times the support cost factor, or minus the support cost factor? That, too, needs to be investigated before the formula can be considered pinned down completely.