08-03-2003 01:40									#1
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I just got this emailed to me today... this kind of thing is really starting to make me mad. It seems like no one today understands what freedom of religion is supposed to be...

quote: Do you agree? I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's ma Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect - somebody chanting Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome... "But what about the atheists?" is another argument. Well, what about them?? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations. Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want it is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right. But with God on our side, you are no longer going to take our rights away we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless America- despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God... May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust If you agree with this, please pass it on. If not, delete it!!

	08-03-2003 01:47									#2
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quote: If you agree with this, please pass it on. If not, delete it!!

did you take their advice?

	08-03-2003 01:54									#3
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@ Sprayber.

BustaMike, I actually tend to agree with your PoV, but he has a point.

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 01:59									#4
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Yeah, I know. I'll just delete it. It's just the attitude that "The US is a Christian country so everyone else should deal with it" that I don't like.

	08-03-2003 02:02									#5
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That's the part that I agree with you about.

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 02:05									#6
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That's nothing. My Grandma loves this crap.

quote: got this from a friend today. It has some provocative thoughts for today. In light of the many perversions and jokes we send along to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This joke today is not intended to be a joke, it's not intended to be funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" ( regarding the attacks on Sept. 11 ). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack! ! , school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. ~~~ Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. ~~~ Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. ~~~ Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued. There's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating , smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK. ~~~ Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK. ~~~ Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK. ~~~ Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good. ~~~ Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK. ~~~ And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech. ~~~ Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead. ~~~ Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. ~~~ Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." ~~~ Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. ~~~ Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. ~~~ Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in! Are you thinking?

Utter Worthless CRAP.

	08-03-2003 02:07									#7
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Christians being persecuted in the United States?

Riiight...

	08-03-2003 02:09									#8
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There are so-called Christians, and there are Christians.
Christians, don't mass mail spam.

	08-03-2003 02:10									#9
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The second bit is from your Grandmother?

If so, I sympathize: I have a religious nut in my family too. My Aunt (who has recently waffled back to being Catholic after being a Hari Krishna - or some sect thereof - for a while and something else before that, after growing up Catholic) is the fanatic type. Every time I see her, she feels the need to tell me how Jesus loves me, even if I don't love him, etc. I nod and say "that's nice" and try to leave it at that (my Mom has asked me nicely not to mess with my Aunt). Luckily, I don't have to deal with her often, since she lives in North Carolina now.

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 02:16									#10
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My family's religious feelings are more a product of tradition. They don't explore or anything - everyone's a protestant. My sister married a Catholic guy and my parents showed pretty bad bias against that (the guy was a jerk anyway, but still).

My parents are the only ones that know I'm agnostic - they've known for sure since last summer (but they should've known three years ago). My Dad says that "this is a phase" and that the reason why I feel that way is just because I'm smart or something. Thanks! Trivialize my opinions a little more why don't you! My dilemna is that the more people I tell in my family, the more they'll start trying to show how religious they are - try and shame me into going to church (when they hardly go as it is). Plus, my family's pretty much OK, just intolerant.

	08-03-2003 02:16									#11
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Unless a person is forced to pray or penalized in some way for not praying, I dont' see what the big deal is. Although inside a classroom is no place for it at all. But some of the people suing over christmas decorations that depict religious scenes are being ridiculous. If your atheist, then they should mean no more to you than a picture of Santa or red white and blue banners during the Independence day celebrations. The only people I see that may have a cause is other religious groups. And as long as they have the exact same opportunity to display their decorations, then I think things should be even.

Remember, being tolerant is a two way street.

	08-03-2003 02:19									#12
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quote: And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.

* Ben Kenobi shakes head.

So the majority must always be right?

	08-03-2003 02:19									#13
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Agreed, Spray. The zeal with which some people pursue things like the Christmas decorations is almost... religious. People go overboard on both sides.

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 02:28									#14
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Yes, such Christmas decoration suing seems pretty zealous and over the top!
Americans are pretty sue-happy it seems...

	08-03-2003 02:29									#15
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Americans? Sue happy? Naaaaawww! Whatever gave your THAT idea?

*sigh*

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 02:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Unless a person is forced to pray or penalized in some way for not praying, I dont' see what the big deal is. Although inside a classroom is no place for it at all. But some of the people suing over christmas decorations that depict religious scenes are being ridiculous. If your atheist, then they should mean no more to you than a picture of Santa or red white and blue banners during the Independence day celebrations. The only people I see that may have a cause is other religious groups. And as long as they have the exact same opportunity to display their decorations, then I think things should be even. Remember, being tolerant is a two way street.

Sprayber, I agree. Personally, I couldn't care less if people pray at sporting events or not. Wishing for the safety of the players is a good thing. Just make sure it is nondenominational. The email tries to justify the use of a 100% Christian prayer on the grounds that the majority is Chrisitan and the US was created Christian so everyone else should deal with it. That I disagree with.

	08-03-2003 02:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Sprayber, I agree. Personally, I couldn't care less if people pray at sporting events or not. Wishing for the safety of the players is a good thing. Just make sure it is nondenominational. The email tries to justify the use of a 100% Christian prayer on the grounds that the majority is Chrisitan and the US was created Christian so everyone else should deal with it. That I disagree with.

I would be more in favor of a moment of silance so everyone can pray or meditate or sleep if they want to.

	08-03-2003 13:06									#18
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freedom of religion means you should be allowed to say a prayer before a game.

It's called freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion

	08-03-2003 13:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident freedom of religion means you should be allowed to say a prayer before a game. It's called freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion

Freedom of religion means you can choose any religion you want, including none. It does not mean a person must have a religion.

	08-03-2003 13:37									#20
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exactly

and it means if one person chooses to have a religion, he shouldn't be forced by athiests to have no freedom of speech.

So if some person wants to give a prayer, he should be entitled to do so.

Freedom of Speech takes precedence over freedom of relgion anyways.

	08-03-2003 13:41									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident exactly and it means if one person chooses to have a religion, he shouldn't be forced by athiests to have no freedom of speech. So if some person wants to give a prayer, he should be entitled to do so.

It depends. Not when it can be taken as the Establishment favouring one religion over others.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Freedom of Speech takes precedence over freedom of relgion anyways.

I am not sure if prayers can be construed as speech per se.

	08-03-2003 13:50									#22
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if an erect penis inside a woman's mouth can be considered free speech, then I'm sure prayers can

as long as schools aren't forcing people to do prayers, I'm OK with it.

	08-03-2003 14:17									#23
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I am not a lawyer as far as US Constitution goes, so we need to wait for one to arrive.

	08-03-2003 15:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There are so-called Christians, and there are Christians. Christians, don't mass mail spam.

God, I'm glad SOMEONE realizes there's a difference.

Sure, I'm for God, but I won't go spamming people (oh, I hate ).

And though some may wish not to hear prayer before a sports event or what not...do you REALLY have to sue?
Then, I doubt people would. I only glanced at the article, but that was what it was appearing to say.

Anyway, don't badmouth us because some of us spam(unfortunate), and don't sue people for doing stuff you disagree with. Follow the second bit, and we'll all feel better.

Hmm....now, watch as my mind flies off in another direction

	08-03-2003 15:53									#25
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I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I understood the problem correctly. Is the issue someone in the audience speaking prayers or the stadium speaker?
In the first case, I would definitely consider it a break of personal liberties if one's not allowed to do it. In the second case, I could understand what upsets my fellow atheists. For then, people are almost forced to find themselves to be part of a religious ceremony they don't want to be in - the game is called football, right?

	08-03-2003 16:42									#26
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Don't even get me started about humans and their ideas about religon!

	08-03-2003 18:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I understood the problem correctly. Is the issue someone in the audience speaking prayers or the stadium speaker? In the first case, I would definitely consider it a break of personal liberties if one's not allowed to do it. In the second case, I could understand what upsets my fellow atheists. For then, people are almost forced to find themselves to be part of a religious ceremony they don't want to be in - the game is called football, right?

It depends. In some cases, there would be a person over a PA system issuing a prayer. Mostly though, its a simple moment of silance. All through my highschool football games there was a moment of silance before the game got underway. BUT, before we as players went out before a game out assistent coach would say a simple prayer. ( he was also a Baptist minister ) This was especially true after three of our players were involved in a car accident the night of a football game in which one was killed.

	09-03-2003 13:37									#28
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What I think can lead to dangerous ideas, is when a country's flag is displayed in a church, or any other place of religious worship.

It's a republic -- not a theocracy, people.

	09-03-2003 13:39									#29
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If they want to display the country's flag in their church, what's wrong with that? I could understand not putting up religious symbols in government buildings, but what's the problem when it's reversed?

	09-03-2003 13:45									#30
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a flag is just a flag after all. a piece of fabric.

It's not like they are holding congressional hearings in churches