09-03-2003 06:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The French don't spend much on farm subsidies at all. They have the Germans and British pay those.

Oh, Thats right. I still hate farm subsidies though, even though I am a commie.

	09-03-2003 07:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The single best thing which Europe and the U.S. can do to help each other would be to make an agreement eliminating the fat subsidies they are giving to inefficient farmers. Those fat cats should have to sink or swim just like the rest of us without cushy government hand outs.

You are so correct!!!

	09-03-2003 07:40									#33
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Those fat cats should have to sink or swim just like the rest of us without cushy government hand outs.

I'm sure most of us get cushy government hand outs of one sort or another.

	09-03-2003 07:44									#34
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If you want to stop farm subsidies you are going to have to stop food stamps. I don't think many people are going to support that except several libertarians here

	09-03-2003 08:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK If you want to stop farm subsidies you are going to have to stop food stamps. I don't think many people are going to support that except several libertarians here

In food stamps the people are poor, they can't feed thier fammilies. I just don't think people should be paid to stay in something that is not productive, it is just like giving a blacksmith money to do things the inefficient way instead of using mass production. Private or, preferibly, government agribussinesses can buy the high-tech combines, aqueduct systems, and high yield hybrid crops without going into debt. I should know, many of my classmates are farm kids.

	09-03-2003 09:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK If you want to stop farm subsidies you are going to have to stop food stamps. I don't think many people are going to support that except several libertarians here

Duncan: That is absolute rubbish. We can continue to provide to the poor without giving welfare checks to the rich. Most farmers own land that is worth millions yet I am supposed to cry for them when they cannot sell corn as cheaply as a starving African? Let the market decide which farmer is better and let the government stop giving farmers money just so they can win political support. The truth is the average western consumer pays twice for all the food he eats; once when he buys the food and another when the fat farmer gets his welfare check for not farming.

That's right they get paid to do nothing. Why is it single mothers get *****ed at for accepting government checks while not working but farmers who fallow fields (read: sit on their asses doing nothing) are entitled to welfare checks? These bastards are just sucking up welfare and they need to be kicked off.

	09-03-2003 09:13									#37
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Chirac and Schroeder sure are awesome leaders...

	09-03-2003 09:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Odin In food stamps the people are poor, they can't feed thier fammilies. I just don't think people should be paid to stay in something that is not productive, it is just like giving a blacksmith money to do things the inefficient way instead of using mass production. Private or, preferibly, government agribussinesses can buy the high-tech combines, aqueduct systems, and high yield hybrid crops without going into debt. I should know, many of my classmates are farm kids.

I agree, just pointing out that food stamps are farm subsidies too.

	09-03-2003 09:44									#39
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It is one thing to give subsidies to millionares and it is another thing to give subsidies (food stamps) to poor welfare moms. I don't see giving food to the need as a subsidy to farmers while giving millionare landowners a susidy to not farm is certainly wrong.

	09-03-2003 09:49									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is one thing to give subsidies to millionares and it is another thing to give subsidies (food stamps) to poor welfare moms. I don't see giving food to the need as a subsidy to farmers while giving millionare landowners a susidy to not farm is certainly wrong.

Because the farmers get paid by the government for what they would otherwise not be paid for by the free market.

	09-03-2003 09:52									#41
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No, they get paid by the government to not farm because other wise there would be an over supply of farm good and then politicians wouldn't be reelected by upset farmers. The market would continue to pay them exactly what they were worth but the farmers wouldn't get what they wanted so the government is forced (by spineless **** sucking politicians) to make up the difference and then some.

	09-03-2003 10:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin No, they get paid by the government to not farm because other wise there would be an over supply of farm good and then politicians wouldn't be reelected by upset farmers. The market would continue to pay them exactly what they were worth but the farmers wouldn't get what they wanted so the government is forced (by spineless **** sucking politicians) to make up the difference and then some.

I'm not in disagreement with you. Just stating that there are good and bad subsidies and that food stamps are a good farm subsidy.

	09-03-2003 11:38									#43
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You should always try to keep your deficit less than economic growth. That way, your overall debt keeps decreasing as a percentage of your economy and doesn't get out of hand. This 3% deficit guideline in the Stability Pact is a pretty good one, because it approximates economic growth in a good economic year. The business cycle is already built into it.

France's and Germany's deficits are well above their economic growth rate (by several percentage points), which doesn't make it look good at all. Further, France won't have too many years of economic growth that are sufficient to cover a 3.4% shortfall.

All of this said, this has to be put into perspective. Japan is running a ~7% of economy deficit, and is growing at less than a 1% rate. Japan's debt is astoundingly huge, which everybody will be paying for in one way or another in the years to come.

The US deficit will likely stay roughly within its economic growth rate, even with Bush's tax cuts and a war added in. It has done this so far, even with the first round of tax cuts and a recession, which indicates that Bush isn't really skating on thin ice.

Last edited by DanS on 09-03-2003 at 11:44

	09-03-2003 11:45									#44
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I wonder why people think farm subsidies intended purpose was to pay rich farmers. The whole reason was so that individual small farmers wouldn't have to fold and sell to the agribusinesses.

	09-03-2003 11:48									#45
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Ya exactly.

Farm Aid. (singers like John Couger, Willie Nelson, raising money for family farms, etc.)

	09-03-2003 11:52									#46
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It is also a large reason for agricultural subsidies in the rest of the world as well. It is the result of populists who want the family farms to be protected from the big business who wants to take it away.

	09-03-2003 11:53									#47
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He Siddiqui speaking of food I just ate some kick ass Chicken Karahi. *belch*

Come one, you know you want to eat some!!

	09-03-2003 12:00									#48
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HATE, HATE, HATE Indian/Paki food.

	09-03-2003 12:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The US deficit will likely stay roughly within its economic growth rate, even with Bush's tax cuts and a war added in. It has done this so far, even with the first round of tax cuts and a recession, which indicates that Bush isn't really skating on thin ice.

I doubt that. The deficit could go as high as 400b.

	09-03-2003 12:31									#50
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Which would probably be roughly comparable to the economic growth per annum.

	09-03-2003 12:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Which would probably be roughly comparable to the economic growth per annum.

GDP is 10.5T right? I think its about twice economic growth.

	09-03-2003 13:18									#52
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That's last year's economic growth. Not this year's. Last year's deficit was roughly in line with economic growth as well.

So far, this has been a good piece of work by the administration. Also, some luck.

Last edited by DanS on 09-03-2003 at 13:27

	09-03-2003 13:27									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's last year's economic growth. Not this year's. Last year's deficit was roughly in line with economic growth as well.

I think the average is about 2% for the recent years.

	09-03-2003 13:28									#54
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What's your point?

	09-03-2003 14:09									#55
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I'm not against deficits, but I am against deficits that won't stimulate the economy, and I don't think these will.

	09-03-2003 14:22									#56
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DanS,

These tax cuts are going to go mostly to the baby boomers. This generation is trying to save for their retirement, and they have lost money in the stock market. When they get these tax cuts they aren't going to spend the money. When they retire its going to be the other generations who are going to have to pay the tax bill.

	09-03-2003 19:24									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I wonder why people think farm subsidies intended purpose was to pay rich farmers. The whole reason was so that individual small farmers wouldn't have to fold and sell to the agribusinesses.

They are sold as helping small family farms but the reality is most of the money goes to agro-business. BTW those family farms own own millions of dollars in property so I don't feel bad for them at all. The truth is we have to many farms and to much farm produce so the government should be helping to move farmers into other industries instead of paying them to over produce (or worse pay them to do nothing).

Get rid of the subsidies and let them sink or swim. That will lower everyone's tax bill & their food prices and it will help third world farmers who are currently frozen out of the market. More choice, lower taxes, lower food prices. This is a winner if ever there was one.

	09-03-2003 20:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They are sold as helping small family farms but the reality is most of the money goes to agro-business. BTW those family farms own own millions of dollars in property so I don't feel bad for them at all. The truth is we have to many farms and to much farm produce so the government should be helping to move farmers into other industries instead of paying them to over produce (or worse pay them to do nothing). Get rid of the subsidies and let them sink or swim. That will lower everyone's tax bill & their food prices and it will help third world farmers who are currently frozen out of the market. More choice, lower taxes, lower food prices. This is a winner if ever there was one.

The problem is that the subsidies don't discriminate between the farmers that need them to stay in business and agro-business. I'm not totally against subsidies that would force poor farmers to sell the farm just because of temporary low prices.

	09-03-2003 20:41									#59
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Especially not now when food prices are set to increase significicantly by 2015.

	09-03-2003 21:20									#60
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This year Germany will probably also break the deficit limit since our economy has huge problems. (IIRC experts predicted that Germany's economy won't grow at all this year)
Schröder has made alot of promisses to get reelected but now it has become obvious that he's a liar. (It was obvious before but people were blind)
His party, the socialist SPD is unable to reform the country which is really necessary. Our taxes are way too high in Germany and people without a job earn more than many workers with low-income jobs so working is not profitable any more.

Anyways, even though an inflation of the Euro will help the German economy because we export alot, it is a dangerous development and Europe should strengthen Brussels authority.
The European countries only have their own interests in mind and Brussels doesn't have the power to do anything that Paris and Berlin don't want.