11-03-2003 02:44									#121
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not sure but I think there was even a WTO ruling that lower taxes were not a subsidy as long as the tax rate is the same for everyone. For example it would be illegal to give a tax break just to exporters of cheese but it would be fine to have a lower tax rate for every company which made cheese.

	11-03-2003 02:47									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Produce more in tonnage? (US is first) Workers are most productive? (US is ahead of EU average but behind France & Luxembourg)

Yes .

I was counting the EU as one economic entity (which may be wishful thinking on my part, but I believe that it will deepen to such an extent as to simply be considered one economic system.. a la the Zollverein), but I also did have produce in tonnage in mind as well.

	11-03-2003 02:53									#123
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: The history of agriculture in the United States since the Great Depression has been one of consolidation and increasing efficiency.

Same source

	11-03-2003 03:11									#124
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So? They're French....do you think they actually *care* what the rest of Europe thinks?

I can hear Chirac now, in response: "this would be a good opportunity for the rest of Europe to shut up."

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2003 03:15									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I want to take this opportunity to defend my French neighbours
Even if France didn't care they would have lots of company (like the US ).
I don't know a single country in the world that doesn't think of its own business first. *sigh*

	11-03-2003 03:23									#126
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey, I agree with you....national interest comes first, and that's just the way the game is played....which is why the EU is about as good as its going to get....no nation is going to give up its national soveriegnty, especially when Chirac is strutting and crowing around like he's THE voice of the EU.

But....the agreement was signed by all the member states....if they're not gonna live up to it....that says something important, I think, and it sends a strong message to the states waiting in the wings to join.

Perhaps, rather than simply shredding the agreement, France could do a bit to diminish its welfare state to bring the budget back into balance. Political suicide, I know, and nobody wants to give up their gravy, so of course, it won't happen, but it would be the fiscally responsible answer.

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2003 03:41									#127
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK ? source?

OECD - used OECD in figures 2002 for shares of agriculture in GDP and employment in 2000.
Used latest estimates of GDP at PPPs in 2000 and employment in 2000, France had 101% of US level, Luxembourg had 109% (Denmark had 100%).

	11-03-2003 03:50									#128
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui but I also did have produce in tonnage in mind as well.

Want to trade a tonne of oranges for a tonne of wheat?

	11-03-2003 04:05									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by el freako OECD - used OECD in figures 2002 for shares of agriculture in GDP and employment in 2000. Used latest estimates of GDP at PPPs in 2000 and employment in 2000, France had 101% of US level, Luxembourg had 109% (Denmark had 100%).

This productivity is measured in compensation per farm worker. I think the price of food is a factor here. I could be wrong though, but isn't food more expensive in France?

	11-03-2003 04:28									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

French Commie Disclaimer : I am a Communist from France, and as such, I oppose my incompetent president about everything except Iraq. My views do not reflect the views of the French people as a whole in any way

Chirac is probably the most terrible president France has ever had under the 5th Republic. He didn't hesitate to betray his people, his country, his European neighbours, and the Global Community.

Chirac's program during April 2002's elections supposed an annual growth of 3% in the period 2002-2007. Of course such a figure belonged to a fantasy world, but nobody dared to rebunk it, because it served every party's interests.
One of the "great" promises of Chirac was to reduce the income tax by 33% in 5 years, starting by a 5% reduction immediately. He didn't promise any reduction of our expanses, of course. At the very same time, he promised to the EU he'll have a 0% deficit in 2007 as per the Stability and Growth Agreement .
As unbelievable as it sounds, he followed this stupid promise, and French income tax was 5% lower.

Also, Chirac has begun to raise the military budget, and the police / justice budget for the sake of fighting against petty crime (big topic during the campaign).

Thus, France has higher expanses, and lower income. More precisely, French 2002 budget was intended to be :

— Income : 233,6 billions €
— Expanses : 266 billions €, including about 70 billions for the military. Highest expenditure was the Public Education.
— Sold : - 30,438 billions €, i.e. 1,4% of deficit. Naturally, the official budget as voted by the Assemblée Nationale thought a 2,75% growth would be realistic

	11-03-2003 04:38									#131
	Support Apolyton

Also, please note the welfare system is mostly separated from the State, and isn't paid through taxes like the State's budget. Welfare system is closely linked to emplyedship, and gets most of its resources from "social cotisations" paid by the employer and the employee.

Welfare system redistributes about 20% of the French GNP, and the State redistribute about the same part, for a grand total of ~ 40% of the GNP passing through the administration at some point.

I don't know if EU's evaluations take welfare's deficit into account or not. Currently, the government is trying to reduce any it of "useless" expanse off the welfare system. As such, the government reduces direct transfers to old people helping them being autonomous (State paid), reduces and intends to destroy the free healthcare for the poorest (State paid), and many other despicable things.
In this perspective, the war with Iraq is aa blessing for the government, because nearly everybody supports Chirac on Iraq, and there is almost no struggle against the insensitive and absurd cuts exerted by the gov.

	11-03-2003 04:41									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor [size=1]. One of the "great" promises of Chirac was to reduce the income tax by 33% in 5 years, starting by a 5% reduction immediately. He didn't promise any reduction of our expanses, of course. At the very same time, he promised to the EU he'll have a 0% deficit in 2007 as per the Stability and Growth Agreement . As unbelievable as it sounds, he followed this stupid promise, and French income tax was 5% lower. Also, Chirac has begun to raise the military budget, and the police / justice budget for the sake of fighting against petty crime (big topic during the campaign).

Suprising he hates Bush so much, because their economic policies are so much alike.

	11-03-2003 05:14									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Bush and Chirac are competing for the award of the biggest moron at the helm of a modern Democracy. You bet they can't bear each other

	11-03-2003 05:17									#134
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Bush and Chirac are competing for the award of the biggest moron at the helm of a modern Democracy. You bet they can't bear each other

I honestly believed that only Americans were stupid enough to believe such crap that doesn't make any sense, and only because our leaders claim it to be true.

	11-03-2003 05:29									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You know, French and Americans are incredibly similar to each other (the American lack of history notwithstanding).

	11-03-2003 07:38									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia not since they were unionized.

Sorry, this is completely incorrect. They not only aren't unionized they grossly underpaid and have very little rights. There are millions of undocumented migrant workers in this country and they are the ones that keep the farm industry running cheaply.

We sort of look the other way at the situation.

	11-03-2003 07:48									#137
	Suffering from ads?

source?

	11-03-2003 07:54									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

First hand knowledge.

	11-03-2003 08:06									#139
	Increase Your PM Length

They are unionized in California. It's the United Farm Workers Union. They still don't get paid very much.

edit: Well they do hire illegals, and they aren't unionized of course.

	11-03-2003 09:51									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

They've attempted to unionize you mean. The sucky thing about being in a no skill labor industry is I can always find so poor, dumb, starving bastard to replace you with. If you act upitty then I will hire a different illegal alien from Mexico who will be more then happy to work for sub-minimium wage because back home he's not making any money.

If you want to be successful in unionization then you need to be in a skilled industry which the management cannot easily replace. Thus pilots and engineers can unionize effectively but hotel workers and farm workers haven't a prayer in the world...

	11-03-2003 13:41									#141
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Having lower taxes is not the same as having subsidy... I'm not sure but I think there was even a WTO ruling that lower taxes were not a subsidy as long as the tax rate is the same for everyone. For example it would be illegal to give a tax break just to exporters of cheese but it would be fine to have a lower tax rate for every company which made cheese.

Yes, only special tax breaks count as subsidies for WTO purposes; _how_ special is the battlefield for lawyers and economists.

From an economic point of view, even sectoral tax breaks are subsidies. So if there were say a 30 % income tax in general, but a 15 % tax on "farm income", it would be the same as taxing it at 30 % and giving the difference as a government handout.