09-03-2003 06:27									#1
	GS FA thread 1 Remove this text

ok

I think I am covering these guys

Jon Miller

	09-03-2003 10:07									#2
	Remove this text

Pulled from other thread - Dated 6 March:

And now back to rgular business - tech tading letter received from GS and my response:

Greetings to you as well, Nathan.

I think the Literature and Horseback riding deal works well. We are in no great hurry for literature, so we can wait a few more turns to further obfuscate things. Gow did not put a time limit on the no-trade matter. They wanted a chance to negotiate directly with you - which from the sounds of it, they have had a couple of chances to do. But we can wait a bit longer.

Regarding GoW, I am recommending that we buy MapMaking from them for cash. I suspect I can get it 40 gold, maybe a bit more. This has several advantages. The first and most important to both of us in the long term is that it will further camouflage our tech agreement. Secondly, it gets us around the no-trade time limit, which is not part of our treaty, but which is being imposed by GoW. And thirdly, from Vox's perspective, it will do a little fence mending with GoW after certain issues arose regarding dealings with Lux.

May I also suggest that as we both have a stake in this, that GS contribute 20 gold to this purchase. I know I had recommended that you forward 20 gold to Lux as part of the previouslly proposed agreement. If you did in fact forward it, then the smallish treasury we obtained from Portia would have included it. If not, may I ask that you consider the merits in sharing a part of this purchase.

Incidentally - when GoW asked about trading techs, we told them that we had major indecision in techs, had to restart research, and are a long way from completing anything. You are the only ones who are aware that we are researching philosophy, and that it is almost done.

And again - we need to discuss what would be in the alliance's best interests for Vox to research next.

The international fall-out from the demise of Lux has been limited, and the reporting very balanced. Vox is relieved to get on with 'normal' business. The last few days have not been happy ones at Vox.

Trust all is well with you and the GS team.

Regards .... Beta.
quote:

nbarclay wrote on 06-03-2003 03:49:

Greetings,

Literature is on its way; it's up to you whether you want to get it now or later. One thing we've been thinking is that if you would send us back Horseback Riding right after we send you Literature (so the gifts look like a single trade deal from an outside perspective), it would look to anyone who is watching (and able to watch) as if we made some sort of deal involving Literature and Horseback Riding. That might cause problems if GoW catches the arrangement and regards its expctation for you not to sell Horseback Riding as still in effect after all this time, but at least it doesn't leave the appearance of techs flowing every which way as gifts between us. If you think that sounds like a good way to handle things, please send us back Horseback Riding when your turn comes. (We're starting to get tired of GoW's pestering us to buy Horseback Riding from them.) If GoW specified a particular time limit on your not selling Horseback Riding, though, we probably ought to abide by it.

Nathan

	09-03-2003 10:12									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Pulled from other thread - dated 7 March:

Greetings,

We have a clue from Trip that someone is researching Construction, but we don't really know otherwise. I think at the moment, GS is leaning in the direction of thinking Polytheism might be a good choice, if only because with your relatively low research speed, it's something you could get in a reasonable amount of time. (No offense intended; just realistic evaluation.) Also, it occurs to me that there's a chance all three Bobian civs mght neglect Polytheism since it doesn't really do anything directly, leading to a possibility of a trade without having to give up Republic.

If we come up with any other thoughts before you play your turn, we'll let you know, but I wanted to go ahead and make sure you have our current thougts now.

Oh, and whoever sent Horseback Riding last turn forgot to click Accept before sending it. Please don't forget with Philosophy or it will mean a one-turn delay for Republic!

Nathan

	09-03-2003 10:17									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Pulled from other thread - dated 8 March:

I had PM'd Shiber thanking him for his comment in the public forum, and he asked if he could post my PM in the GS forum. I said OK. Here are the messages.

RE: Insightful
No problem.
I'm always happy to help our allies.

Btw, is it okay if I post this message to the GS forum or would you like me to keep it between us?

.... Shiber

quote:


Shiber - you posted this in the thread where we announced Lux's demise:

"I'm really sorry to see this happen, but such are the rules of the game. It's too bad though, that Vox have thrown Lux the lifeline and yet Lux was ungrateful and uncooperative and gave Vox hell in negotiations. I hate to see Lux go, but I think it's mainly their fault - you can't play several civs against each other forever, especially not when your continued existence depends on one of those civs."

It struck me as the most insightful comment yet made about the situation from someone who was not directly involved. We at Vox are not feeling too good about what we did, so it was helpful to see that some folks understood the issue from our perspective.

Thank-you. ... Beta.

	09-03-2003 10:21									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Pulled from other thread - dated 8 March:

I have checked the last turn - and neither GoW or Neu D have literature. This may help us. To be sure, I have checked with GS:

Hi nathan - GoW is making some very unreasonable demands regarding Map Making. Are you Ok with us offering them literature as part of a trade, or were there strings attached to your trade with RP.

RP is giving us grief about trading with you for literature by the way.

...Beta.

	09-03-2003 10:29									#6
	Got spare money?

Nathan's answer:

RE: Trade with GoW

No strings were attached to our Literature deal with RP, so it's up to you how you want to handle it. Good luck with your diplomatic juggling act.

Nathan.

and after the turn was played - I sent this:

Philosophy
Hi nathan - philosophy was offered and accepted. We have started Polytheism.

We may have reached agreement with GoW for map making. Not sure yet. Will keep you posted.

... Beta.
__________________

Last edited by Beta on 09-03-2003 at 20:40

	09-03-2003 20:21									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

sent to nathan this morning:

Good morning nathan.

Some interesting news for you and GS.

First - GoW inexplicably gave in on the map making trade and agreed to trade it for 40 gold, after their initia unreasonable demands. We will proceed with this. I ask you to consider again about sharing in the cost of this transaction, given its benefit to the partnership.

Secondly - GoW has asked us what we would be willing to trade for philosophy and contact with Legoland. The first point would indicate that another civ has researhed philosophy, or they may want us to believe that so we wil then try to market ours for a cheaper price. Any thoughts?

The Legoland contact I expected. A Lego galley is on its way up the north side of the continent Bob, from what I can surmise in my recent discussions with Lego. I don't think it is worth giving up much in retrurn for this contact. they will meet Vox soon enough, and then we will both have contact. I have also impressed upon the Legolanders not to get 'burnt' in any early trades with the first civ they meet, by paying too high a price for a tech which is readily avaialble to the rest of us. They understand the logic.

Also - Neu D is giving us grief over harboring Lux, and we may have some fence mending to do their. Their main issue is the cost of the war to them, with no return.

Trust all is well with you - take care. ... Beta.

	09-03-2003 22:16									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I tihnk that it is getting clsose to time to pressure GS for an alliance against the continent

Jon Miller

	10-03-2003 19:21									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

jon - you were asking about the trade balance with GS.

Updated to today.

---------------------
Vox to GS:
---------------------

bronze working
iron working
warrior code
mysticism
mathematics
horseback riding
philosophy

total - 350 beakers

other -

75 gold - Lux situation
contact with GoW
contact with NeuD
contact with RP

--------------------
GS to Vox
--------------------

the wheel
alphabet
writing
literature
code of laws

total - 370 beakers

other-

8 gold - part of previous trade; HB Riding I think

	13-03-2003 21:07									#10
	Got spare money?

Jon - draft letter for you to review, modify as you see fit, and forward to GS. This letter is intended to drive home the point to GS that we are still valuable partners.

Nathan Barclay

Hello Nathan,

I am writing to update you on our current tech trade situation. To start with, we are trying to spread the FA load around here and take some pressure off Beta, so I will be dealing with you in the future.

We are currently researching Polytheism as previously discussed. We have also engaged Neu Demogyptica in trade negotiations, to firm up now a future trade for currency which they are researching. They have been trading regularly with Glory of War and suggested we may benefit from a three way trading arrangement. Thus we are also in negotiations to obtain Construction from Glory of War, when completed. RolePlay is also researching Polytheism, so we want to get commitment on these future deals now. We will no doubt have to add some gold to balance the tech trades, but it is conceivable that we will soon have a deal for both currency and construction.

This will provide our alliance with all the techs required to move to a new era, where we will benefit from a free tech given our scientific heritage. We will keep you posted on our pogress.

We obtained Map Making from Glory of war for 40 gold, thus covering our tracks somewhat. We do expect that other civs suspect something, but they do not know for sure. Any other thoughts on how we cloud the issue are always welcome.

As previously mentioned, we are asking that Gathering Storm cover half of the purchase cost of map making - which is 20 gold.

Also, on the diplomatic front, we were able to smooth things over with Neu D regarding the Lux affair. It cost us 30 gold from the 'old Lux treasury'. As half of that treasury went to Gathering Storm, and as good relations with Neu D is key to the trade deal, we are asking you to consider covering half of that cost - 15 gold.

As you may have also heard, we have intelligence that indicates a Lego galley is heading up the north shore of Bob. We expect to make contact in short order, and will provide such contact with you when we have it.

Other than that, it is calm and sunny up here. How are things with Gathering Storm?

Jon Miller

Last edited by Beta on 13-03-2003 at 22:07

	14-03-2003 04:37									#11
	Support Apolyton

yah

I have been reading the board

I will send sometihng to GS tonight

Jon Miller

	14-03-2003 04:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I will ask for half the costs of mapmaking

I will not ask for half the costs of ND, why would GS be paying tribute to them?

GS has no reason to do that, and I am not going to embarrass us and them by asking them

I will press for a defensive alliance (just in general, not against any specifics)

and will let them know about our trade situation

Jon Miller

	14-03-2003 05:26									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I will ask for half the costs of mapmaking I will not ask for half the costs of ND, why would GS be paying tribute to them? GS has no reason to do that, and I am not going to embarrass us and them by asking them Jon Miller

OK - you are probably right about this. See my post in the ND thread.

	14-03-2003 10:09									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I will also use my style (so he knows it is I)


Hey GS

we are currently researching poly

we are tryingto work out some trade deals for it in advance (Which is neccesary, see below for reason)

we were wondering if you would split the costs of mapmakingw ith us (20 gold)

lego is coming down, we will soon pass you contact with them

we do have a slight problem though

bascially all 3 teams on the continent are researching our 3 possibilities (construction, currency, and polytheism), and we are starting later than them, so I am unsure if we can beat them (Although our tech speed is similiar to a couple of them)

Jon Miller

	14-03-2003 17:03									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I will also use my style (so he knows it is I)

Yes - makes sense.

	14-03-2003 22:12									#16
	Suffering from ads?

PMed

Jon Miller

	20-03-2003 01:07									#17
	Remove this text

Please provide some clarification on the border agreement we have with GS. I know it restricts where our units can move down south. Does the line extend into the coast and out into the blackness as well?

	20-03-2003 06:14									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

city sites were the deffinite treaty positions

since than, we have not been as active in our relationship with them

it is sort of included in that, that we don't go farther south than where we are now

Jon Miller

	20-03-2003 07:41									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Jon - I guess no word on the 20 gold yet?

This is a bit frustrating after the 75 Lux gold payment. If their argument is that their research rate is so much higher - tell them that we are still relatively even in beakers. They got better geography to work with. We got the early contact with Lux amd GoW. About balances out.

Harry - I have the ratified treaty agreement, which is basically a screen shot with city sites on it. I will send that around again.

Last edited by Beta on 20-03-2003 at 08:19

	20-03-2003 08:33									#20
	Tired of ads?

Ratified border treaty with GS has been e-mailed to everyone. It was settled by Jon with GS many turns ago. it explains a bit of history, and why we have built where we have.

It was a landmark agreement in our history, led directly to the tech trading arrangement which you may have seen in an earlier FA thread, and generally decreased greatly the tensions between ourselves and GS. Warriors were allowed to be positioned in certain spots as 'observers.'

	20-03-2003 21:29									#21
	Tired of ads?

So... GS is south of us? What is the latest intel on GS? the info thread is about 2-3 weeks out of date.

	20-03-2003 22:10									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

argha - if jon were here he would encourage you to read the old FA threads. The history with GS is quite straightforward - but it has had its moments. In particular - you need to read the tech trading agreement. For everyone's benefit, I will see if I can bring it forward to this thread.

	20-03-2003 22:26									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is the trade agreement reached with GS in early February. So far it has held.

Tech Exchange
Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli,

While trying to address the trade situation, we of Gathering Storm realized that no formal agreement has ever been drawn up regarding our tech sharing arrangement. We have a general understanding to share all techs our two teams obtain at least for the time being, but that leaves room for possible misunderstandings later on. Of particular concern was making sure you do not view this as a game-long commitment on our part, since we prefer to maintain some flexibility as game conditions change. (After all, there could be more than 3500 years to go before this ends.)

Rather than risk the possibility that our teams might be working from different understandings of what has been agreed to, we've decided to defer accepting your tech offer for the moment while we try to clarify the agreement. Sir Ralph and I submitted the following proposal for ratification, and the vote thus far has come back strongly in support.

quote:

(1) Gathering Storm and Vox Controli hereby formally agree to give each other all technologies discovered, through whatever means, for the duration of this agreement.

(2) This agreement may be cancelled by either team under the following conditions. (a) The team wishing to cancel the agreement must provide a minimum of ten turns' notice. (b) Both sides, and especially the side initiating cancellation, are required to act in good faith to ensure that the treaty will be ended (or transitioned to some other arrangement) in a way that is equitable to both. Both agree not to manipulate the timing of tech discovery, tech trades with other parties, the ending of the deal itself, or any other factor in such a way as to obtain an unfair advantage over the other.


If this is acceptable to you, please re-offer the techs you offered this turn and we can pick up from there. We're expecting Writing in three turns, and can forward it to you then. (It would probably be better if you don't include Horseback Riding just yet, given the confusion that surrounded your getting it and the fact that our need for it is not urgent.) If this is too far from what you had in mind for you to consider it acceptable, we'll need to try to iron out the differences in what our teams had in mind.

In regard to suggestions for what tech you should research next, I'll have to address that issue separately. The situation is complex enough, especially with the possibility of trades in addition to what our two civs research ourselves, that we haven't yet reached a firm conclusion for what to suggest to you.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	20-03-2003 23:20									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

btw last time I checked we are equal in military to them. So don't get paranoid thinking they are going to attack. We are still weak compared to everyone else though.

	20-03-2003 23:31									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmmm - interesting point. They must be piling everything into growth and infrastructure.

	20-03-2003 23:57									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

so should we

Jon Miller

	21-03-2003 00:32									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And others want barracks and Immortals. That's where I think Macy's plans thread is a good idea. Let's discuss the options and what we want to do.

	21-03-2003 13:38									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

balance. In fact we probalby only need 1 city building immortals now unless war is imment.

	21-03-2003 23:01									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

sent to GS

tech trades
wea re trying to work out trades for future techs from other civs (for our future techs)

we are wondering what you are doing on the tech trading front (we know that you do not plan on trading republic (and neither do we))

Jon Miller


Kpm

	25-03-2003 03:04									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

hmmmmm... comments? From GS. It looks OK, except we tell them we are researching Monarchy, which was Shiber's initial suggestion. The rest we can agree with.

Tech partnership: revision
Respected BetaHound of Vox Controli.

Greetings from the Gathering Storm. I bring you this offer, a revision of our current tech sharing arrangement. You have already brought up this idea to Shiber in a chat you had, so I’ll go straight into the deatails:

1) The treaty lasts for a period of 20 turns.

2) in that period of 20 turns, VC gives the GS 12gpt.
3) The GS shares with VC the techs they have researched or have purchased, as soon as the GS acquires the techs, as long as these do not fall under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with other teams, in which the GS has agreed not to trade these techs onwards.
4) Out of all the techs given to by the GS in the 20 turn period, Republic, Currency and Construction will be for VC use only- and will not be traded by VC to any other team.
5) VC will share with the GS it’s free medieval technology.
6) The treaty can be renegotiated after a period of 20 turns.

I consider this arrangement to suit the current developing situation better than the one we’ve had so far and hope you find it acceptable. Please try to reply as soon as possible

Cordially
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm