10-03-2003 05:41									#1
	What should we research should we get BW from the hut? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think that these are the three options that people are supporting.

Please choose one.

	10-03-2003 05:58									#2
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I'm about equally torn between Writing, Mathmatics, and IW. I think Writing is a bit more useful at this point though. We can pretty much guarantee our third tech won't be duplicate that way.

	10-03-2003 06:02									#3
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I partially agree with Aeson. IW is very important, as our primary attack forces will be Swordsmen, though Writing is very useful if we have neighbors. On the off chance that we don't have neighbors, then Writing means Map Making, which means boats and contacts.

Hmmm... decisions...

	10-03-2003 06:12									#4
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The reason I would pick IW right now is just to find out where it is; so we can plan our city layouts around the availability of Iron. Lots of things could change also if we don't see any near us. To me IW just answers many questions in an early part of the game so that you can make better decisions about how to treat other Civ's and how our general game play philosophy will go.

To me, to have Iron or not makes a really big difference in overall game tactics.

	10-03-2003 06:29									#5
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Maybe it will work itself out and we'll get The Wheel from a hut. BW shows up about ~40% of the time a tech does in my testing, with WC another ~40% and The Wheel ~20%.

	10-03-2003 09:38									#6
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As Iron is THE most Important Resource, all the way to the mid/late Industrial Age, it's better that we know were it's at as soon as possible.

E_T

	10-03-2003 10:10									#7
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As I mentioned elsewhere, having IW gives us the option of not using NMs... huge, in my opinion.

	10-03-2003 10:57									#8
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Writing is a key tech I like to get. But I rate Iron Working just a bit higher.

	10-03-2003 11:05									#9
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I assume we will not be building Swordsmen right away, so getting Iron Working is only to see the Iron deposits.

At this point in the game, knowing where the Iron is will not help us out very much. Are we willing to found a city far away from our capital just to secure a source of Iron which we would probably get anyway if we just expanded? The worst-case scenario is that we have to fight another team for a source of Iron. But that does not seem likely, as the most logical place for Iron is North, where we know there are no teams. So getting Iron Working just to know where the Iron sources will be nice, but most probably will not change our game plan much. Iron Working can wait a few turns, IMO.

Add this to the fact that other teams will prioritize Iron Working too, and we would be researching a tech with very little immediate value.

It is not hard to see how Writing, on the other hand, could pay off quite well once we meet other teams.

I'm still convinced the mere threat of Mercs. will keep others at bay, discounting the defensive value of Iron Working in this particular game.


Dominae

	10-03-2003 11:14									#10
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I'm going to have to agree with Dominae here. The only sources of iron that we wouldn't already have secured would probably be outside the jungle, meaning it would probably be more of a stretch to get them than they're worth. Trust me on this one. The only possible benefit of researching IW would be using them as an alternative to NMs, which would be a waste.

On the other hand, researching Writing first would mean that we would be the dominant diplomatic force on the continent. If we're alone, then we're just a quick jump away from Map Making.

Either way, I think Writing is a better choice.

	10-03-2003 11:34									#11
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also I can recommend how dangerous it is to build cities far away to "secure" a resource. As we all know.

Those are good points. Because of the civ we are we probably should go for writing. Normally I would go for Iron Working. but that is when I play warlike civs. So far it looks like we have room to explore. So offensively I don't think we will need to push anyone back. Defensively our mercs can hold. I know people fear an early Golden age. But I don't think that will happen. I seriously doubt anyone will challenge our mercs.

I think I may swing my vote to writing.

the only problem I see is if I'm wrong . And some team does attack our mercs with swordsmen. But sometimes you have to take chances to get ahead.

Iron Working is the "safe" tech to research. But to get ahead, I suggest writing.

Last edited by Dis on 10-03-2003 at 11:53

	10-03-2003 12:20									#12
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I'll carry over the conversation I was having with E_T in the chatroom.

Under what circumstances do we need Iron Working?

Well, either A) we're packed in with civs and potential resources are quickly swallowed up, which means we need to secure them quickly. This is why Lux made sure it was the first to finish IW in the PTWDG. B) We plan on using Swords to deter or force a war.

Let's look at each of these situations individually.

A) We're not packed in with anyone. We have a small peninsula to ourselves, and a massive jungle to hack through when we see fit. Any resources on our peninsula are well within our grasp, and any resources found outside of the jungle will be too far out of our sphere of influence to be able to consider acquiring for quite some time. This means we either have iron near us or we don't, and the next step for dealing with that reality is far off. The only potential consequence would be upgrading Warriors to Swordsmen, but NMs can easily make up for that. The plan to make a Settler-NM combo every 8 turns means that upgrading Warriors is not necessary.

B) We are not in a position to force war upon anyone. Nor are we in a position to gain anything from it. Right now the only valuable gains from war would be to subordinate a civ, or for land. We are too far from another team to use its land, and subjugating a team would be far too difficult to do this early, and would set us back very far. This means we don't plan aggressive wars for a very long time to come.

Our NMs are more than enough to deter war. Why will the threat of being able to use 3/2/1 and 2/3/1 units be greater than that of just a 2/3/1 unit in the same quantity? A 2/3/1 unit is still a good attacker, and a vicious defender. No one in their right mind would actually want to conquer us by the time we can pump out some NMs. A declaration of war would be pointless for any team unless they wanted to destroy us (no one would want our land), and trying to slosh through the jungle and fight off heavily fortified NMs in the jungle would be a nightmare (I must admit this). This means previous to turn 30 and after Knights become available are the only times that we're really vulnerable. Turn 30 will pass and we may not have even found another civ, let alone them finding us in this massive jungle. By the time Chivalry is researched, we'll have plenty of other ways to deal with other teams...

For these reasons, I must support us researching Writing next, and not Iron Working.

	10-03-2003 12:39									#13
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1) we have no idea what is to out west (or Southwest for that matter).

2) We are not sure that we have someone close to us (i.e. if on a small contenant, not 100% sure).

3) with knowledge of where we have Iron (and we CANNOT say for sure were it would be), we can properly plan. We can properly plan city placement. We can properly plan how and when we will connect that Iron. We can build Warriors and make economic plans for their upgrades (or if we don't have Iron nearby, we can plan something else - archers, etc).

Writing is an expencive tech (relatively), where as IW isn't as expencive. If we have 1 (or 2) more cities built by the time we start to research Writing, then it will take much less time to complete. If we go for IW then Writing, we will likely have gotten Writing shortly after just going strait for writing, because of factoring in our trade growth potenial.

Either way, we really haven't won't have "wasted" that much time and we will still be growing while we work on it.

E_T

	10-03-2003 12:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by E_T 1) we have no idea what is to out west (or Southwest for that matter).

That's easy... jungle.

quote: 2) We are not sure that we have someone close to us (i.e. if on a small contenant, not 100% sure).

If they are close to us, then they would be on the other side of the jungle with plenty of land to expand in the other direction away from us. They will think that we are in the same position north of the jungle. Either way, they won't be so motivated as to go through the jungle to try to get us, unless we really give them a reason to attack us (that's the job of others, to prevent that from happening...). Even if they are close, what motivation might they have to attack? If they don't have any, then getting Iron (and thus, Swords) isn't as valuable, if, say, we were surrounded by 4 other teams in the middle of a large basin with all resources.

quote: 3) with knowledge of where we have Iron (and we CANNOT say for sure were it would be), we can properly plan. We can properly plan city placement. We can properly plan how and when we will connect that Iron. We can build Warriors and make economic plans for their upgrades (or if we don't have Iron nearby, we can plan something else - archers, etc).

Our cities will be placed according to where they will have the greatest production and expansion possibilities (at least, to my understanding). Finding iron will either mean 1) building a road to a nearby source, or 2) diverting one of our later cities. Either way, it's not a big issue, like where to place your 2nd city.

quote: Writing is an expencive tech (relatively), where as IW isn't as expencive. If we have 1 (or 2) more cities built by the time we start to research Writing, then it will take much less time to complete. If we go for IW then Writing, we will likely have gotten Writing shortly after just going strait for writing, because of factoring in our trade growth potenial. Either way, we really haven't won't have "wasted" that much time and we will still be growing while we work on it.

Whatever way you slice it, Writing can offer the greatest benefit compared to any other tech we could research right now. IW will probably be researched by many other teams, and with Writing being expensive, as you say, means that other teams are less likely to have researched it. The other main advantage of having techs (other than the direct effects) that people often times forget or ignore is that you can trade them away to get other techs... if we end up researching IW while everyone else has finished or traded it long before we finish it, then that bonus is negated. And for what? To find out we do (or don't) have a hunk of metal sitting on a peninsula inhabited by no one but barbarians.

	10-03-2003 13:25									#15
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Trip has addressed most of the points on this debate quite well already, but I'll just jump in for some further thoughts:

quote: Originally posted by E_T 3) With knowledge of where we have Iron (and we CANNOT say for sure were it would be), we can properly plan. We can properly plan city placement. We can properly plan how and when we will connect that Iron. We can build Warriors and make economic plans for their upgrades (or if we don't have Iron nearby, we can plan something else - archers, etc).

Almost regardless of where the Iron will be, you can be the location of our first 4-5 cities will remain the same. We need good early growth more than anything right now (yes, even Iron and Swordsmen). There's no use in connecting Iron of you've got no economic base to use it.

I agree that knowledge of the location of Iron will affect our planning somewhat. But not all that much. Look at the map in Turn 14 again and tell me we're not going to see 1 Iron source up North.

quote: Writing is an expencive tech (relatively), where as IW isn't as expencive. If we have 1 (or 2) more cities built by the time we start to research Writing, then it will take much less time to complete. If we go for IW then Writing, we will likely have gotten Writing shortly after just going strait for writing, because of factoring in our trade growth potenial.

This is not an argument to get Iron Working first. Our trade growth potential will remain constant no matter what techs we discover (it could conceivably go faster if we go for The Wheel, and that extra Commerce from those Horses ends up really paying off...but I doubt it). The argument you want to make is why Iron Working should be first. The speed at which we get it is irrelevant.


Dominae

	10-03-2003 17:30									#16
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I believe that all the relevant points were quite nicely summed up by Trip and Dominae. I will only add that the PtWDG experience of Legoland also supports choosing Writing as the next tech - our start looked quite similar to what we have here, just that we had a river with a cow for our first city, which helped somewhat.

With the only exception of not seeing more than 1 luxury soon, the start really looked pretty much the same - the jungle, desert, and mountains... only little land to the North, LOTS of jungle to the South & SW) everything like in this game. Yet we later found out we were alone. Our early decision to give Writing (and later Map Making) a higer priority than Iron Working in fact saved the day for us - we were able to make contact on our own terms and at the earliest possible moment, catching up on techs quite easily (as our "lag" was not that bad at that moment - I am quite sure had we made our first contact with GoW just 10-15 turns later, our situation would be DRAMATICALLY worse).

I vote for Writing and consider it very important to go for this tech now. EDIT/CLARIFICATION: ...should we get BW from the hut.

Last edited by vondrack on 10-03-2003 at 19:07

	10-03-2003 19:15									#17
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Invictus was SURROUNDED by hills yet no iron...

IW :doitnow:

	10-03-2003 20:02									#18
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I would go for writing as well; I won't rehash the points that have been brought up in favor of it, but I will lend them my support. And, as Vondrack said, from our Lego experience, Writing can be a critical step in bettering your position down the line.

	10-03-2003 20:32									#19
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I doubt we are alone... My vote goes to IW.

	10-03-2003 20:47									#20
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hi ,

writing , in order to build lib's so that we can research everything else faster

have a nice day

	10-03-2003 23:20									#21
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We (RP) are in the same situation in the PTWDG with Iron. I will not go into any specifics but just to say that we were shocked at were we found our Iron Deposit at. The lessen is not to count your Resources before you have them in hand.

E_T

	11-03-2003 00:21									#22
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Writing makes sense IF we are alone and what are the actual odds that we are alone? 1:8? Let's be logical about this. If we are not alone, IW or Wheel (but no one has voted for this) make more sense. Not only because they reveal key strategic resources but also because they have a shorter research time.

Here's my thinking on a purely tech trade/FA level: we're one of 3 commercial civs so betting that we can get that one crucial tech (writing, for example) that rules the market is unlikely. If we get in that position, good for us, but if we end up next to other non-commercial civs we still have them beat because we have Alphabet, the most expensive 1st tier tech, and they won't want to research it anyhow.

In an active tech trade environment, everyone gets every tech. Once one team trades it, it gets moved around very quickly to everyone else. Techs are cheap and as long as you have something to offer a civ that they don't have, you can get the tech you want (because some other civ might give it to you).

Diversity and volume of techs becomes more important than the quality of the tech you research. Of course, it also follows that you should be researching unique techs that are marketable.

Writing takes a LONG TIME to research when we have only 1-2 cities. When we meet a civ what are we going to give them after we've traded our starting techs? Are we going to be trading Writing for lesser techs like IW, Wheel, Ceremonial Burial? We're putting in more investiment time than our neighbors and getting the same end result as them.

We want volume initially, then when we have a good tech trade base and a decent research base (at least 3 cities), we can focus on the more expensive techs that give us things we need.

--Togas

	11-03-2003 00:40									#23
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Togas, you seem to be saying that we should research all the cheapest techs first, as then we will have a lot of trade material. This conclusion is not true, assuming most teams will be trading techs based on their relative worths (as seen in the editor).

Your argument that other Commercial civs will be researching Writing (therefore discounting its trade value to us) is odd. Will teams not be prioritizing Bronze Working and Iron Working as well? In fact, the other teams are far more likely to be researching The Wheel and Iron Working than anything else. So the merits of researching Iron Working first are only in the ability to see the Iron deposits, and not as trade value.

Writing has definite trade value, and is useful because we can sell comms and establish embassies. I'm stumped as to why you think Writing only has trade value if were are alone. It certainly would be more useful to us in this situation that Iron Working, but it would still be very useful if we have 3-4 neighbors.

Finally, a general point that I want to make is that hitting Iron Working, even if only for defensive purposes, will mentally set our team into a military mindset. But we want to be peaceful and play the diplomatic game until we overpower our neighbors! I think our tech choices will affect our diplomatic relations. Nothing says "friendly, peaceful neighbor" like a civ that prioritizes Writing.


Dominae

	11-03-2003 01:11									#24
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The point about the propoganda of Writing is excellent, but my point, which Dominae missed entirely, is that it doesn't matter what techs we research, what matters is that we have several techs to trade in the beginning, and that we not get saddled with one very heavy tech that we have to give away for a loss in trades for lesser techs. Team ideally want to trade at editor value for techs, but the reality of the market in an active MP game is that everyone becomes techwhores and prefers to get something for their tech, no matter how trivial or discounted their profits. Therefore, you get more bang for your bucks in trade with cheap techs than you do with expensive ones.

Frankly, I don't care if we research Ceremonial Burial, Wheel, IW, whatever, I just don't think it's wise to research a huge project like Writing NOW, because we're going to have to commit far too many turns to it, and we're going to have nothing to trade once our base techs are gone, and when we get Writing, we're going to simply give it away for a song because we'll have nothing else to offer.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 11-03-2003 at 01:16

	11-03-2003 01:19									#25
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Why do we need to give Writing away "for a song" (nice epression, by the way)? If we contact a civ that has Ceremonial Burial and The Wheel (2+4=6), I think we can expect some extra Gold or tech credits in exchange for Writing (8). In fact, I imagine this is a great tool to ensure a peaceful atmosphere, as teams will want to trade for techs even if it means being in debt for a little while. If we get all the cheaper, more popular techs instead, we'll end up with a lot of stuff that everyone at least has access to, which is not a good thing (we would have to pull something really nice off to get a good deal in that case). But with one big tech that all other teams want, you can bet we'll get our Beakers-worth.


Dominae

	11-03-2003 01:23									#26
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The problem arrives if more than one team has Writing. As long as we're the only team who has the tech, then we can do whatever we want with it... until someone else gets it. As long as we are the only ones with it we set the price for it. This is especially true if we're the only one near having it researched. That means we have a monopoly on Writing for the next 30-40 turns that we can do what we wish with.

	11-03-2003 01:34									#27
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I don't think we should take a 'trade at any cost' approach to techs. Tech trades should be fair in respect to beaker cost and civs that have it.

If we get Writing first on our continent, it will demand a good price. I doubt we'll get it first overall, but the chances we get it first on our continent are about 50-50, better if we get BW from the hut as all teams will want to get it before going with Writing.

If we are the last one to enter the trading arena, but with the biggest tech, it actually becomes worth more. If everyone else has gone for IW, TW, CB, WC and exchanging them amonst theirselves... and we are the only ones with Writing (and possibly with Alphabet), we should get very good deals.

Of course we lose any potential trading value if we are beaten to Writing by one of our neighbors, but we are just as likely to be beaten to any of the other techs besides Mathmatics, if not more. Persia is likely going to research IW from turn 1 or at least after Pottery. Egypt is likely to go for The Wheel from turn 1, or again, just after Pottery. France and India are like us, and need BW at least before going for Writing, and likely will want Pottery as well.

I'm not sure exactly when we could research Writing at 100%, I'll run a little test. Initially it's at 39 turns, and if that holds up anywhere near, we could just go 40 turn Writing and build up our treasury to trade with. Even if we get beaten to Writing, we have almost all the gold to get our other techs with that we could have sunk into them otherwise... and we end up getting Writing for 40 gold.

Once more than 1 civ gets a tech, the gold cost should be much less than the beaker cost.

	11-03-2003 01:49									#28
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Looks like in 28 turns (2070AD) we could expect Writing at max research. Perhaps a turn earlier if we found city 2 down by the river.

	11-03-2003 02:32									#29
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My vote set writing in a shared first position

	11-03-2003 02:35									#30
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To think this poll started off with 1 vote for Writing and 9 for IW...

Looks like the consulate will have to make the decision again...