20-11-2003 20:40									#391
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Nimitz is still recovering from his victory party.

	20-11-2003 21:19									#393
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I haven't seen him online for a few days. That usually means something RL popped up, or connection problems. And don't worry Vondrack, I'm sure we won't be getting the save again before Christmas anyway

	21-11-2003 05:26									#394
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Ok RL did pop up but when I checked day before yesterday there had been no reply from GS. I'm going to check my PMs now and if there is no reply I'm off to PM them again.

	24-11-2003 02:35									#395
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OK, we have finally had the "fix-up" chat with GS... not sure how much I was able to "fix up", but I did re-state our position and tried to be as honest as possible w/o spilling too many beans (I guess I knew why i did not want to talk to them... it's too damn difficult to not tell them what they are not supposed to know, while not lying or twisting truth)

quote: Session Start: Sun Nov 23 21:10:34 2003 Session Ident: #LegoGSmeeting * Now talking in #LegoGSmeeting * Retrieving #LegoGSmeeting info... * vondrack sets mode: +s * Cort has joined #LegoGSmeeting Cort: hi vondrack: hello! vondrack: happy to meet you vondrack: first time, is it not? Cort: yes * Kloreep has joined #LegoGSmeeting Kloreep: Hi Cort: Hi Cort: assume usual confidentiality between teams? vondrack: sure vondrack: first, let me talk about the chat you had with Sharpe and Nimitz, please Cort: fine vondrack: I feel quite uneasy and it's pretty difficult for me to get everything right vondrack: so bear with me, please Cort: ok vondrack: I will need a couple of lines to explain vondrack: that chat caused QUITE some debate in our team vondrack: the main problem about it was that Sharpe & Nimitz were acting without telling anyone vondrack: and, basically, with no authorization vondrack: what they told you, what they discussed... it was their personal opinion(s) and stances Cort: that's ok, we didn't assume it to be the Voice of Lego - just themselves vondrack: that's cool vondrack: because that's what it was vondrack: what makes me feel quite uneasy about the chat vondrack: was that at that time vondrack: I was the FAM vondrack: now I am not vondrack: Nimitz is vondrack: but he is not online Cort: We thought you were the Pres vondrack: not really vondrack: we do not have anyone like that anymore * Theseus has joined #LegoGSmeeting vondrack: the post was abolished vondrack: hello, Theseus! Theseus: Hi! vondrack: glad to see you Cort: hey, T! vondrack: in a nutshell vondrack: I was telling Cort Haus vondrack: that the chat you had with Sharpe & Nimitz vondrack: caused quite a debate in Lego Theseus: How so? vondrack: primarily because they expressed vondrack: their own opinions and stances a bit as if they were of Lego as a whole vondrack: which they were not, or not completely vondrack: they discussed things that were not discussed in our forum before vondrack: and even things that were discussed and not really approved vondrack: I feel very sorry for what happened Cort: and I said that we guessed they might only been expressing their own opinions vondrack: accept my deepest apologies vondrack: now the tricky thing is Theseus: I thought they were pretty clear that they were not speaking for Lego as a whole. vondrack: ok, it was not as clear from the chatlog they posted in our forum vondrack: ATM - I am "nobody" vondrack: not holding any official position in Lego vondrack: just being the primary player Theseus: Who now leads? vondrack: well, uhm... vondrack: me vondrack: but sort of informally Theseus: Me too. Theseus: And what is the tricky thing? vondrack: the tricky thing is vondrack: that Nimitz, who was present during that chat vondrack: is now our FAM vondrack: but he is not online and I cannot get him to attend to this chat Theseus: Yeah, we've been trying to get into a chat with Nimitz. vondrack: so you just have my word that what I tell you is the official stance of Legoland Theseus: OK vondrack: basically, there is very little I need to tell you vondrack: but it is important vondrack: the message we sent you (that "ultimatum") vondrack: expressed our stance very precisely vondrack: we would not be overly happy having to fight you vondrack: but there are things forcing us to if you attack GoW vondrack: there would be vondrack: I mean Theseus: We have not further entered GoW territory. vondrack: understood vondrack: so - if I may sum up what I needed to tell you Theseus: In fact, we are pretty far along in negotiating a contract with them, as I had previously questioned you about. vondrack: ok... vondrack: I guess no need to sum anything up Theseus: No... go ahead. vondrack: I meant to say vondrack: that I am glad to know you did not consider the chat "official" vondrack: because that was a very important thing Theseus: No problem... but we need to get official. vondrack: the "official" stance was communicated through that message - that one was voted upon (unanimously, I may add) Theseus: Give me a sec to lay out the situation, OK? vondrack: ok vondrack: go ahead * vondrack sets mode: +ooo Cort Kloreep Theseus Theseus: We are negotiating with GoW for the removal of RP from Bob. This will satisfy their contract with ND. Theseus: In the last turn, RP gifted us 3 out of 4 cities on Bob, leaving them only Pamplona. Theseus: We are gifting them North Stormia for the time being. Theseus: Next turn, we will either take Pamplona, or it will be abandoned. Theseus: Once this is done, we will (hopefully) enter into a contract with GoW for the eradication of ND. vondrack: has this been endorsed by GoW? Theseus: We intend to split Bob with GoW, and then return RP to a limited portion of Bob. Theseus: No, the contract is in draft, and certain key points are being negotiated. Primarily how the land gets split. vondrack: I see Theseus: Lego plays a role in this... vondrack: ? Theseus: We would like your approval of this plan, and commitment not to interfere. Theseus: Further, we would like to invite you to participate. Theseus: If you want. Theseus: We have also discussed Lego settling a (small) piece of Bob as well. Theseus: If you want. vondrack: well, yes, this is where the issue gets complicated for me... or us vondrack: give me a sec to express myself clearly vondrack: an approval to the plan you are mentioning Theseus: We are pursuing the idea of "balance" that your team members has discussed... just a balance of 3 primary teams ratehr than 4. Theseus: Go ahead, sorry. vondrack: would be subject to the approval of that plan by GoW in the first place Cort: .. and if GoW's approvals depends on your approval? Theseus: OF course. vondrack: then perhaps we would have to consult with GoW first vondrack: to be honest, we were briefly informed vondrack: about the negotiations vondrack: we know they took place, that is Theseus: Good. vondrack: what if GoW does not approve the plan? Theseus: We have kept our troops in place for an... alternative resolution. Theseus: We know your position in such case. vondrack: yes vondrack: so, if I read the situation correctly, it's GoW we are all waiting for Theseus: Assuming your team members were not too far off in expressing your desires (i.e., Lego not fighting at the current time), this plan should meet with your approval. Theseus: Hmmm... we are sort of waiting on GoW, but it's really a bit more complex. vondrack: true Theseus: If we can reach an agreement with GoW, will you approve of this plan? vondrack: honestly, we have not even dicussed that possibility yet in our forum vondrack: somehow... vondrack: we believe that the bonds between GoW and ND may be more than just a "contract" Theseus: The play well together. Theseus: But I think GoW really do like being mercs. vondrack: ok, let me state it this way: vondrack: IF YOU GET GOW TO AGREE TO YOUR PLAN (the emphasis is on this part of the statement), Lego is open to all possible resolutions vondrack: but until we are officially informed by GoW, we are going to honour our current deals and bonds Theseus: I understand the capitalized part, but not the second clause. vondrack: the second part says: there is nothing we would a priori mind about the plan you have drawn out vondrack: though it was not really discussed yet Theseus: OK, great... so I'll ask GoW to give you a ring? vondrack: the capitalized part says we are less than sure you can get GoW to agree to it Cort: we think we can Cort: if you are ok with it Theseus: We are "glass half full" types. Theseus: vondrack, I'm going to draft my report to Aggie on this chat for your approval. vondrack: not really necessary Theseus: Just to make sure, OK? vondrack: ok Theseus: "We had a short chat with Lego. They are, of course, maintaining their current commitments, including their support of GoW in the event that we attack your homeland. They are aware of our current contract negotiations, and in the event that we enter into the contract against ND as described, they will not interfere." Cort: how long would it take for approval to get from 'a priori' to definite? Cort: (sorry) vondrack: yes, I think this summary is correct vondrack: just keep in mind (for yourself) I gave much emphasis on that "in the event" Theseus: Understoood. Theseus: OK, then, any techs or luxuries you want to give us? vondrack: LoL vondrack: the only luxury we have vondrack: you already have Theseus: At least it's not a friggin' C3C map! vondrack: haven't had time to install my copy of C3C yet vondrack: too much business last days and weeks vondrack: (got C3C only few days ago) Theseus: My first try at an epic game... Japan, no iron on the continent, and India next door!! vondrack: LoL vondrack: cool Cort: India must be better now Theseus: Same problem with time constraints, though. Theseus: I think we are done... unless you want to discuss Lego's (and Vox'?) possible participation in the war on ND. vondrack: that would be premature, I believe vondrack: let's hear what GoW says first vondrack: once we are past that vondrack: we can discuss war on ND Theseus: OK. I will send the above communication to Aggie. vondrack: ok Cort: thanks for the chat Theseus: Oh... is there anything we should know about your gov't? vondrack: gov't? what is that? vondrack: Theseus: Participation is down? vondrack: all we still have is the FAM vondrack: (Nimitz) vondrack: not really vondrack: just that we ended up with very few formal positions vondrack: oh, btw... I think you should know this Theseus: Us too. vondrack: Sharpe left Lego after the heated debate following the chat he and Nimitz had with you Cort: wow! Theseus: REALLY??!! vondrack: yes Cort: Funny, I was looking for him on the members list for the PM to call this Theseus: I apologize if we in some way caused trouble. vondrack: no, it was not your fault at all vondrack: as far as I know, it was him asking your for the chat Theseus: Being unauthorized? vondrack: well, I mean - anything that was a consequence of that chat was a consequence of something HE asked for vondrack: and of the reaction of the rest of the team to that Theseus: DGs can be... intense. vondrack: tell me... Kloreep: Yes, this PTWDG has gotten far too intense at times... vondrack: agreed Kloreep: Hi there, popping back in to the chat vondrack: but I learned more than one lesson here Kloreep: Here's hoping for a carefree PTWDG II Cort: and a bug free one Theseus: BTW, I'd like to compliment you vondrack... you have had one of the cooler heads in the varios DG interactions I've seen. Theseus: We are done here, yes? Back to GoW we go. vondrack: ok, I do not see a reason to keep you any longer - I said what I was supposed to, making sure you do not misunderstand the previous chat, and now it is up to you to finish your talks with GoW vondrack: yes Theseus: See ya... thanks!! vondrack: and... thanks, Theseus. I believe we belong to the same kind. Cort: thanks, bye vondrack: bye * Cort has left #LegoGSmeeting * Theseus has left #LegoGSmeeting Session Close: Sun Nov 23 22:08:38 2003

	24-11-2003 03:52									#396
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quote: Theseus: We would like your approval of this plan, and commitment not to interfere.

Oh my, this is very interesting. By 'commitment not to interfere' I read 'we don't require Lego's involvement' ....

So assuming an end to current stage of hostilities in 5 turns minimum. Then a negociation/rebuilding phase followed by a lengthy war against ND...

Just how far a lead could we take?

	24-11-2003 11:17									#397
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Yes, that's how I understood Theseus. They would "allow" our involvement in a war on ND - if we were interested in. They would "allow" us taking a (small) part of Bob - if we were interested in. But between the lines, I read: ...but we would rather if you just stayed out of it, not messing in.

Interesting how they consider ND a serious threat, while practically dismissing us as a threat... or at least it seems so. Perhaps it is because we have nowhere to further expand to?

Well, anyway... if you read the Thursday alliance chat log, you will see that GoW is just leading GS, gaining time to organize their defenses on the Eastern Bob. So, all this is just GS hoping/believing in castles in the air...

	24-11-2003 14:34									#398
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I would be inclined to beleive GOW, however, one must keep an open mind

	24-11-2003 20:04									#399
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quote: Theseus: BTW, I'd like to compliment you vondrack... you have had one of the cooler heads in the varios DG interactions I've seen.

Maybe we should let him into our forum

	24-11-2003 21:14									#400
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Yes, that's how I understood Theseus. They would "allow" our involvement in a war on ND - if we were interested in. They would "allow" us taking a (small) part of Bob - if we were interested in. But between the lines, I read: ...but we would rather if you just stayed out of it, not messing in. Interesting how they consider ND a serious threat, while practically dismissing us as a threat... or at least it seems so. Perhaps it is because we have nowhere to further expand to?

I'm sure they see us a threat, but securing a good chunk of Bob is the best way of dealing with us. They do not want to deal with us militarily, because the resource drain would be enormous and victory would not be guaranteed.

At the same time, ND is not a big threat, but they are best victim around. GS think they can "sell" ND as a victim. ND are outsiders in several ways (not Apolyton, all are German(?), and probably a few more).

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Well, anyway... if you read the Thursday alliance chat log, you will see that GoW is just leading GS, gaining time to organize their defenses on the Eastern Bob. So, all this is just GS hoping/believing in castles in the air...

I tend to believe GoW. It makes more sense for them to stick with the ND alliance. They still have the possibility of victory with then ND alliance, but if they back stab ND, forget it...they would be the next GS target and they would have no friends.

Overall, I think we need to stay the course and be prepared for WAR with GS. With that said, priority #1 is to upgrade the defenses, which is in progress.

	27-11-2003 16:37									#401
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A PM from Cort Haus:

quote: Vondrack, Thankyou for meeting with us the other day. It was good to talk with you. Have you spoken with GoW yet about this matter? We are still in negotiations with them and obviously we hope to nail down the deal - and should we get to the point of signing with GoW, we were wondering whether we might be able to move to an agreement with yourselves to formalise Lego's assurance that they would not intervene against GoW/GS in the event of a joint GoW/GS attack on ND. Regards, Cort Haus Gathering Storm

I suggest we do not respond at all at this moment. Tonight, there is the alliance chat - I will find out how far GoW is with their refusal (few days ago, Aggie said UnO was working on the wording of their note). After the chat (tomorrow), I'd respond with something courteous, but vague... not really telling them we know GoW is going to tell them to stuff it, but rather that they need to talk to GoW to find out what the situation is like.

	27-11-2003 16:56									#402
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Maybe they are trying to use our approval to convince GoW to accept the deal. So until GoW actually agrees to something like that (though they won't); no, until we will see a written GS-GoW agreement on this, we won't do anything about it, and we can tell them that.

Besides, why do they need our approval? What do they except? We can very well say "OK, go ahead" and then help ND. So ... keep them in the fog, yes.

	27-11-2003 19:03									#403
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I would just not respond for now. Hold the alliance chat, and maybe us and GoW can come up with a coordinated story.

	28-11-2003 23:55									#404
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A looooong PM from Cort Haus, Mull it over, guys.

quote: Vondrack, As you may be aware by now, GoW are not going to take up the GS offer. National Holiday family commitments in the USA have delayed our turn. There's no way we can proceed on this most critical of turns without a full team discussion. So, Lego and GS are still, thankfully, at peace but if a vote is taken to attack GoW regardless then according to your policy a state of war would, most regrettably, exist between our nations. This begs the obvious question: What would be the conditions for ending such a war? Please consider the following frank and open analysis of the geo-political realities of the world : We compared the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings : Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) A glance at this shows that GS's potential productive power is only half that of Lego, and only half that of each civ of a 2-civ Bob. Of the four powers in the world, Gathering Storm clearly has the least chance of winning the game. In fact, our only chance was to (a) try to establish a production centre on Bob and (b) to prevent a 2-civ Bob by defending Spain. With RP eliminated as a power, GS has been facing 2 civs, each with a far-superior Knight unit, and both in Golden Age. With stalemate in the South, our only chance was to strike the enemy at home, but when we tried that we discovered, to our astonishment, that Lego is also comitted to our defeat as well, and we stand on the brink of all powers being openly allied in war against us. If we elect not to attack GoW, we may instead turn round and say to Lego : "OK guys, you win - you've opposed us, defeated us, and we're getting off Bob. ND and GoW between them will soon have 750 tiles; Lego have 400. GS has 160. What do you think about the balance of power now? Are you still against us?" Having defeated RP and driven GS from Bob in the above scenario, GoW and ND would either continue their alliance against another target, or they'd split up with ND, taking the whole of Bob. The Bobian uber-power would then have to decide whether Lego or Stormia is next, and if I was them, the prospect of Lego - already overtaking GS economically, catching up (if not already at parity) militarily, miles ahead on tech, still with a GA to come and industrialising soon - would be more threatening than a technologically backward, diplomatically isolated and militarily defeated GS. True, Lego's 400 tiles against Bob's 750 tiles is better odds than those GS are facing : 200 tiles against 900, but a more even balance of power would see GS's 200 tiles combined with Lego's 400. If GS were to survive as a competing power to the end-game, as pragmatists we would happily play either a build-out or a duke-out. GoW have no intention of there being a build-out, and so far ND seem to prefer military solutions. You guys are the Builder team, albeit prepared to go to war if you deem it necessary, so you'd surely be hoping for build-out rather than ending the game on GoWs terms (btw - if it came to Lego v Bob with GS out of the game, I personally would be rooting for Lego!). So, Legonians, I have laid out some reasons why our nations should not be enemies - on the contrary, perhaps we should now be looking at forging closer ties. What say you? Regards CH

	29-11-2003 00:37									#405
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hmmm, an interesting message, even more so if it can be fully taken at face value.

In a sense, he is right, GS are restricted on Stormia to the degree that in the later game they will not be able to compete. Not essentially our problem, but 'a' problem nevertheless. He may also be right about how far behind they may be likely to fall.

I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Bob is an awful big place, especially with two Civs...

While I am still in favour of continuing with our origional plan, I can see some benefit in suggesting that some of the former RP territory be left in the hands of GS/RP. Not essentially our decision one would have to say.

Here is what I propose:

- Re-iterate our statement to GS regarding the consequences of an attack by them on the GS/ND homeland
- Concede that we may also have 'concerns' over the long term strenght of a 2 civ Bob, and of the long term intentions of a militaristic ND and an oppurtunistic GOW.
- Suggest that their Military focus remain in the former RP territory.
- Give assurances that we will talk to GOW and ND about a plan to bring about the end of the war without any attacks on their homelands
- Re-affirm our beleif that our teams can be long-term allies but state that our current goals and policies are not inherently compatible


What we say and what we do are not necessarily the same. The problem we face is that we seem to have good, if not excellent relations with all 3 teams right now. GS do appear to be putting a lot of thought into our reactions and opinions and that for one leads me into thinking about even longer term goals. There is no doubt this war is good for us, and long may it continue... but the consequences should we be fully dragged into it? That is something I should still like to avoid if possible....

	29-11-2003 00:56									#406
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I agree with redstar here. This seems like a good opportunity to state we also want good relations and perhaps closer ties in the long-term, so long as this war is concluded.

I'm not so sure about trying to convince GoW+ND to let GS on Bob. Might be an idea, but they rightly wouldn't want to concede much.

GS seems to be on the brink of realizing this war is now futile. This is probably a good thing, before they weaken their forces too much to defend Stormia; though it would be nice for GoW and ND to struggle a little longer while we build.

	29-11-2003 01:00									#407
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I'm not suggesting we really try and convince GOW and ND, merely suggest it in the interests of long term GS relations. Maybe they will go for it, who knows...

	29-11-2003 01:00									#408
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FYI, I breifly acknowledged the receipt of the PM:

quote: Cort Haus, Just briefly acknowledging the receipt of your thorough PM. I have posted it in our forum - we will respond in detail, addressing the issues raised, but it will take us some time to put the response together. Sorry for not answering your previous PM - we were waiting for GoW to talk to you first. It would have been rather unacceptable to inform you about their decision, which we knew, before they'd tell you officially. Regards, vondrack

I will add my comments later today (still need to do something here). Basically, I agree this is a golden opportunity to improve our relations with GS, preparing for the post-war era.

I am thinking of being very friendly and honest with them. But I need some time to think this over...

	29-11-2003 13:56									#409
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Alright, sorry for not posting yesterday... Karina is sick and I had to do some late night shopping, to prevent starvation here. Shuffling around about 25kg of stuff made me a bit tired, longing for bed.

First:

As much as I appreciate the calm, quite honest tone of the GS message, let's not fool ourselves - it is still GS. They are the best players around, at least as far as the "in-game" is concerned - they demonstrated it more than enough by their uberbuild-up in the early phase of the game. If they are improving their diplomacy, they only get more dangerous. Let's not fall in love with them just because of one skillfully crafted diplo note.

That said, I completely agree that this is the golden opportunity to make GS understand our position, our reasons, to make them realize theirs - and to ensure that once this war is over, they will become our allies or at least not our (hidden) enemies, helping us to balance the power of GoW-ND Bob, rather than happily watching whatever troubles we may later get into, thinking "cool, now they get what they deserve, them Lego bastards", not helping us out a smallest bit (once we go through our GA, I would be fairly confident we would be able to defend against the united GoW and ND on our own, if necessary, but I would still prefer having more than just Vox as allies).

Now, before we start thinking about what to respond and how... let's sort out our short-, mid-, and long- term objectives (sorted in the order of significance).

1) we do not want to expand beyond Legos

...read: we want to win the game peacefully (spaceship or UN), not via domination. We don't intend to take any more land than we currently have on Legos and we'd prefer not being forced to (responding to another team taking too much land themselves).

This actually implies...

2) we want Bob split between GoW & ND; no GS presence, RP presence acceptable

The reasoning is still the same. If GS was to gain land on Bob, we would have to constantly fear their attempt to overtake the rest of it. GS knows, just like we know, that even after "establishing a production centre on Bob", they'd have no chance to win the game without further expansion. We'd still be much more powerful economically - actually, even more than if they did not get any land on Bob (because with our power the same, our top competitors, GoW & ND, would be weakened, while GS would still not make it into the first league).

3) we want GS on our side once the war is over

This is very important, as facing the united Bob with just Voxes by our side could easily get ugly. We need to do our best to ensure that GS holds no grudges against us (at least no "personal" grudges) and will not spitefully refuse to cooperate just to see us "get into troubles, too".

4) we do not want GoW & ND to turn against us

Speaking post-war, of course. As much as there is nothing we can do in case they simply decide to keep warring, just with a new target, we should make sure we do not give them any reason to turn against us. We want them to enter a long buildup phase after the war is over, because we are fairly confident we will be able to outbuild them.

5) we prefer this war to continue, albeit on a limited scale

Let's just keep that in mind... the longer this war consumes resources of GoW, ND, and GS (and RP), the better for us, the bigger our lead grows and the safer we are on our road to GA.

So much for our goal summary. Ideas on our response to GS to follow in the next post.

	29-11-2003 14:39									#410
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Now, let's do another quick summary, this time of the possible resolutions to the situation we have here. I am including only solutions that are "reasonable" or likely - I am not going to consider things like "we backstab GoW and/or ND" or "everybody makes peace with each other and Lego gets ganged upon immediately". Again, the options are sorted, this time according to how much we'd like them:

1) GS continues the war on a limited scale, in the South of Bob only

This is obviously the best "solution" for us - as it is no solution at all, actually. All our competitors waste their resources in a prolonged war, while we happily sit aside, watching the bloodfest, preparing for our GA, just making sure things go the way of ours. At the end of the day, GoW and ND prevail, GS and RP are off Bob - but not soon and only after GoW, ND, and GS waste a lot of resources. Hopefully no or little impact on our post-war relations with GS. However, as this is so obviously helping us, while harming others, I can see little chance this will happen.

2) GS admits the defeat and withdraws from Bob

RP falls within few turns (or flees to Northern Stormia), the war is over, victorious Bobian powers (re)split Bob and start building. This is not a bad resolution and we could live up with that, even though it would certainly minimize our (relative) gains. The worst case scenario would be GoW and ND turning against us immediately... but I am fairly confident we'd be able to defend against them even if they decided to attack us very soon. Let's not forget that if they fight us, their economy will be as hampered as ours (and with their GA ending soon, their combined economy power will only about match ours, as we match any of their GA economies with our non-GA economy).

3) GS carries out a desperate all-out attack

This draws us into the war. Our LEF units get to fight (and we probably lose them sooner or later). We have to commit more resources to the war, but others would have to, too. Eventually, things end up as if GS quitted now, but later and with major losses on all sides. The most significant drawback of this resolution, though, is its later impact on our relations with GS. They would surely be worse than if never fighting them. Economically, this option is not that bad for us... while we would have to devote some of our potential to the war, we would still be gaining on other teams relatively, because their commitments would be far bigger than ours (the war is being fought on their soil and they are the primary warring parties). Our safety would be almost guaranteed (unlike if other teams possess significant forces able to attack Legos).


Conclusion:

1) we should do our best to prevent GS from attacking GoW/ND homelands (if they haven't attacked them yet, that is), since the only thing we really do not want is to fight GS, because of the inevitable hit to our post-war relations.

2) we should do nothing to weaken the chance of the prolonged war happening. No mediating, no helping any peace talks - if others want to make peace and minimize their relative losses (against us), they will have to do it on their own. The longer they haggle over ending the war, the longer they negotiate, the more time they lose in the uncertainty of war... the better for us. However, I'd be wary of actively doing anything to help the war continue, as any efforts in this direction would quite likely backfire at us, sooner or later. If others are unreasonable enough to let us gain on them, cool. If things go this way on their own, great. But I would rather not push things ourselves, as that is a sure way to annoy others (we would easily be seen in the same light RP was).


Bear with me, I am getting to the response ideas finally...

	29-11-2003 16:45									#411
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Considering all what I have mentioned in the previous two posts, I would suggest the following:

1. make sure GS understands our motives

Let's start with filling in the "hole" GS (intentionally, I believe) left in their global geopolitic analysis. They, quite understandably, did not mention that even if they did gain a modest amount of land on Bob, they would still be in no position to win the game peacefully. Their own analysis makes it clear: we/Lego would have ~400 tiles. GoW & ND, say, ~300 tiles each, and GS 200+100=300 tiles as well. Assuming only peaceful competition, they'd only make our situation easier, while not improving their own enough. And if they gained more than ~100 tiles? Well, than they would become a direct (peaceful) threat to us, which would naturally not not be in our best interest.

Such a situation would inevitably lead to GS having to attempt to gain more land on Bob than we would like, making them a constant threat to our long term goals, especially considering their past military triumph over the strong Vox immortal army (we may clearly state we have no intention to expand beyond Legos and we want to avoid having to). OTOH, having Bob split between GoW & ND would put these two teams slightly behind us in terms of the raw economy potential (not mentioning the huge cost of getting to that position in the first place) - giving us a good shot at winning the game through a peaceful build-out.

That was our reasoning when the war broke out and GS entered the stage and that was what made us pick our side, agreeing to support GoW & ND in their efforts to drive RP & GS off Bob. We should explain we were afraid of GoW and ND was not strong enough to resist the power of GS and RP combined (and we may even drop a word or two about that the situation might very well be quite different now if we did not ally with them - I feel this is quite true), so we allied with them, agreeing to the common goal, which now limits our manoeuvring space, unless we would be ready to basically betray our allies (not mentioning the fact that a betrayal like that would contradict our long term plans). I would mention we have reasons to believe that GoW and ND will not be direct (military) threats to us once the war is over - not in short/mid term.

2. make sure GS understands the extent of our involvement

I would also mention that despite being allied to GoW and ND, we do not consider ourselves waging war on RP. That despite cooperating with GoW and ND (against GS, for the above-mentioned reasons), we have made it clear even to our allies we would not directly fight RP or help with their destruction - partially because of the NAP treaty we still honour, even if in a certain way only (we had no chance to join the war against GS without de facto joining the war against RP, but that's all), and not the least because our selfish interests are not served best by a short, decisive war. I would mention this so that GS at least considers fighting on in the South. Faint hope, but worth giving a shot, I think. Besides, it may make us look good or trustworthy, sort of... by, ummm, "honouring" the treaty RPers have undoubtedly mentioned to GS (and we all know how much emphasis GS puts on these things).

I would, just by the way, mention that if they are able to reach an agreement with GoW, ND, and RP regarding the future split of Bob, we will not interfere. I would do it in order to encourage GS to try securing a piece of Bobian land for RP as part of the eventual peace treaty, perhaps by fighting in the South few more turns, making GoW & ND more willing to negotiate peace based on a partial compromise (I believe if RP is to survive, we would be better off with them left with a small piece of Bob, rather than exiled on Northern Stormia - less land for GoW/ND, more land for GS). I believe it's safe to leave this in the hands of GoW & ND, as they will never agree to any territorial concessions to GS - which is the only thing that matters, from our PoV.

3. make sure GS knows our "hostility" towards them does not go beyond Bob

After clearly explaining our reasons to want GS off Bob, I would proceed to making it crystal clear that once the last unit of GS leaves Bob, there is nothing standing between us and them, especially if we never get to fight each other - just the contrary. That the last thing we are interested in is their total destruction. That we'll be happy to cooperate with them, keeping them on par with other teams tech-wise, perhaps even resource-wise, making sure they are safe on Stormia, forming, together with us and Vox, a counter-weight to the Bobian powers (should they remain allied and cooperating).

4. make sure GS can see some (at least faint) hope

What I consider very important... we need to word this part in such a way that it gives GS some hope to be able to make difference and perhaps even attempting to win (militarily) later on. By assuring them they will not fall behind technologically, by assuring them of our full help in case they get attacked on Stormia, they will hopefully consider giving up the current (untenable) position, or at least not drawing us into the war, choosing to withdraw and wait for a better opportunity to strike Bobians at a later date, trying to make us their best friend in the meantime. With no hope, their willingness to not draw us into the war would be close to none - what reason would they have to follow a path that favours us, if it gives them no hope?

People with no hope get desperate. Desperate people do desperate things. Let's avoid a desperate GS (I know they alrady are sort of desperate... but it could get worse).


5. make it clear we do not picture ourselves as acting on any moral high ground

I would finish the message by honestly admitting that we are fully aware of that our current policy is not "fair" to GS - but that simply wanting to win this game is not "fair" to anyone in the first place. That we fully acknowledge their right to feel bitter about our take on the situation - but that what we are doing is what we consider best in order to win the game in our, "builder", way. That we are playing the hand we were dealt to the best of our abilities... holding no grudges against them. Just doing what we feel we have to do.


I hope we would, through this message, achieve the following objectives:

1) we would not betray our allies in any way, as we would be strictly pushing for GS out of Bob (or, at least, GS not attacking GoW homeland), leaving the fate of RP in our allies' hands. That is what the goal of our alliance is. We have no obligations regarding the post-war times.

2) we would make sure GS knows where we stand and what our reaction is going to be if they a) attack GoW homeland, b) keep fighting in the South, c) quit the war and withdraw.

3) we would make sure GS knows that once the war is over and they/RP are out of Bob, we are ready to lift any and all restraints on our mutual relations, be it techs or resources... giving them hope of getting into a better position than the one they are currently in (their position can hardly be worse than it is now).

4) we would not actively help to end the war other than helping GS realize their efforts on Bob are (most likely) futile. We would leave it up to the Bobians and GS to find out a way out of their war.

	29-11-2003 16:45									#412
	Support Apolyton

Alright, that's it.

	30-11-2003 21:03									#413
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK, guys, look... you know I am not against discussions... but this endless debate will get us nowhere... we need to focus a bit. (is it the Thanksgiving? Or should I have chopped my lengthy essay into smaller chunks? or still reading? )

Anyway, here is my attempt at our official response to GS. I welcome all suggestions, improvements, criticism, etc.

quote: Honourable Nation of Gathering Storm, We, the Senate of Legoland, thank you for the honest message and open analysis of your current situation and options. We hope this response of ours will make it easier for you to understand where we stand, what our plans/intensions are, and most importantly, how all that affects our current and future relations. First: we, to a large extent, agree with your analysis regarding the potentials of Lego, GS, GoW, and ND. In case GoW and ND split Bob between themselves in a fair way, their potentials will almost match the potential of Lego, with GS being severely shafted. We also agree that a more-than-2-civ Bob would suit even our plans better, alas... we do not see a way to create a stable world incorporating such a setup. Assuming RP either dies or survives only in a small exile in the Northern Stormia and GS gains a decent share of the Bobian territory (~100 tiles), the world might seem slightly better balanced at the first glance: Lego ~400 tiles, GoW, ND, and GS ~300 tiles each. The problem, though (from our point of view) would be that GS would make our situation easier (by weakening the potential of GoW & ND), while not improving its own enough to be able to win peacefully. If not giving up the hopes to win the game, GS would be forced to try conquering more land in order to match or outmatch us. Inevitably, we would have to respond by defending the attacked nations, getting involved. Which, however, is exactly what's happening now. When the war broke out and your armies joined, rather unexpectedly, the troops of RP, we faced quite a difficult decision. Despite GoW and ND entering their GA, we did not believe they were strong enough to withstand the might of yours & RP combined in the long run, especially considering your stunning triumph over the strong army of Voxian immortals (later events have pretty much confirmed our concerns). We had to decide whether we preferred Bob split between GoW & ND only or (possibly multinational) Bob with your strong presence - which we, as explained earlier in this message, regarded as a permanent threat to our long term plans (we do not wish to expand beyond Legos). Considering the circumstances addressed earlier, we decided the lesser evil for us was Bob split between GoW & ND - and allied with them, strictly defining the extent of our involvement and the goal to achieve. While it was not possible to ally with GoW & ND and protect them from being overwhelmed by your armies without de facto standing against RP, too, we did make it clear we would not get involved in operations against RP. There was/is a treaty binding us to join no wars against RP... and even though it probably sounds a bit ridiculous, we still honour it in the way we deem appropriate. The destruction or crippling of RP was/is not our business, even if we have no intentions to oppose it. Furthermore, it would be futile to pretend our own selfish interests are better served with anything but a prolonged conflict on Bob. It certainly is no news for you that GoW and ND want no presence of yours on Bob. Legoland's role in this triple alliance is, said in a bit simplified way, to ensure you do not win (on Bob), rather than to ensure you lose there - though, in the end, it probably means the same. However, we would like to make it crystal clear that our role in the alliance with GoW and ND ends with your last soldier leaving the shores of Bob (or with a peace treaty signed between you, GoW, and ND). As leaked in the chat some time ago, we even made it abundantly clear to our current allies we would not support any invasion of Stormia. Not only we would not support/join it, but we would actively oppose it, just like we currently oppose your presence on Bob. Once the war is over, we are ready to fully revive the cooperation and trading between our two nations, including techs, luxuries, and possibly even strategic resources. As correctly implied by your message, a feeble GS would serve the victorious Bobians most, indirectly hurting our own interests. We fully acknowledge that our approach to the current situation, with respect to you, is far from "fair". You've got every right to feel bitter about us standing in your way. But then, in this sense, trying to win the game is not "fair" to anyone... only one team can win and Lego wants to win, in its own "builder" way, as much as you or anyone else does. We hope you understand - and we hope that despite standing against each other now, we will not remain that way forever. The Senate of Legoland

	30-11-2003 22:47									#414
	Increase the size of your Attachments

First of all, there isn't any Thanksgiving here; however, yesterday was one of my friend's birthday party, and I just can't drink 6-7 beers and bear the consequencies so well like I used to in the good old days of my youth

Damn Radek, you scared me when you said Karina is sick! I thought there is something wrong with our FP Really! It took me a few seconds to realize that there is actually a living person with this name! I hope she's better now (the real Karina)

As for the analysis, it was very good, so having nothing to add to it, I was waiting for the draft itself.

The only thing I would like to see slightly rephrased is the part concerning our concerns (err, regarding our concerns ) that GS may took more land on Bob, should they be given a foothold. Something along the lines of the idea that "two powerful nations being in their GA barely can face a 200 tile GS. We can only anticipate with dread what could a 300 tile GS , with a second productive center, do against those 2 nations, with their GAs gone and their UUs obsolate."
And if it isn't clear enough, I would explicitly state that we consider a 300 tile GS a bigger threat and a more fearsome opponent than a 350 tile ND or GoW (both militarily and economically). At least now.

I would scrap the "actively" word from here: " Not only we would not support/join it, but we would actively oppose it, just like we currently oppose your presence on Bob." They may leak this info to ND+GoW and we don't want them attacking us instead of GS, thinking that they would need to fight us either way. "We would oppose it" would suffice, IMO. GS will understand that we would support them, while ND +GoW already know we wouldn't support such an attack; so the outcome is better.

I would also detail a bit more the part about us helping them after the war with good deals (especially with regard to technology) and maybe even more. Make this paragraph look more important. Give them more .. err ...bait. As much as they might value our sincere analysis, it is only a preamble. This paragraph is the most important part of our message, so detail it, or write it with bold characters, I don't know, just make it look as such.

Did I pass my exam to join the Machiavelli club ?

Last edited by Tiberius on 01-12-2003 at 01:26

	01-12-2003 02:49									#415
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, very good message...

I would agree with Tibi in that we should perhaps mention more about our relationship post-war.... perhaps mentioning that if they feel they may get left behind we might be able to 'assist' them...

	01-12-2003 04:05									#416
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I was getting to feel lonely here...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The only thing I would like to see slightly rephrased is the part concerning our concerns (err, regarding our concerns ) that GS may took more land on Bob, should they be given a foothold. Something along the lines of the idea that "two powerful nations being in their GA barely can face a 200 tile GS. We can only anticipate with dread what could a 300 tile GS , with a second productive center, do against those 2 nations, with their GAs gone and their UUs obsolate." And if it isn't clear enough, I would explicitly state that we consider a 300 tile GS a bigger threat and a more fearsome opponent than a 350 tile ND or GoW (both militarily and economically). At least now.

Well... first: both the GS note and our response deal with tile potentials. If you are inferior in using the tiles optimally (like, say, current GoW & ND), then you are not using the full potential of the land. But that does not affect the potential itself.

I do not think stressing the fact we consider a 300-tile GS a bigger threat than 350-tile GoW or ND is a good idea. It shows too much respect... even if we feel that respect (and yes, I agree we do), I think it's high time to start acting like the superpower we developed into. Even indirectly suggesting we consider them something more than other teams (in terms of the "intellectual/skill" rather than "tile" potential) is counterproductive, considering what we need - them feeling respect towards us.

At the same time... by admitting we consider a 300-tile GS more of a threat than a 350-tile GoW, we'd basically say we treat GS different from GoW/ND, not "granting" them the chances we "grant" GoW/ND. I would prefer not to touch this issue, even if there is some merit in it. It would likely make them feel even more bitter about us... I distinctly remember how bitter I felt when 3 other players ganged up on me in my only individual PBEM just because they considered me a dangerous (read: too good for them to handle in a fair fight) player that was to be crippled ASAP, while they were far superior to me in terms of combined power.

The whole issue of the current 200-tile GS being more dangerous than the current tile-superior GoW and ND is addressed elsewhere, in the part dealing with our reasons to ally with GoW/ND. I would leave it at that.

quote: I would scrap the "actively" word from here: " Not only we would not support/join it, but we would actively oppose it, just like we currently oppose your presence on Bob." They may leak this info to ND+GoW and we don't want them attacking us instead of GS, thinking that they would need to fight us either way. "We would oppose it" would suffice, IMO. GS will understand that we would support them, while ND +GoW already know we wouldn't support such an attack; so the outcome is better.

Agreed completely.

quote: I would also detail a bit more the part about us helping them after the war with good deals (especially with regard to technology) and maybe even more. Make this paragraph look more important. Give them more .. err ...bait. As much as they might value our sincere analysis, it is only a preamble. This paragraph is the most important part of our message, so detail it, or write it with bold characters, I don't know, just make it look as such.

Agreed, too. I am going to bed now, but I will try hard to enhance that part tomorrow.

quote: Did I pass my exam to join the Machiavelli club ?

Solid B grade, Tibi!

j/k - every idea is more than welcome.

	01-12-2003 05:14									#417
	Got spare money?

Agreed with stressing the future relations paragraph. Looks good

	01-12-2003 07:49									#418
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

blargh! Full of turkey and now all this reading!? I'll try to catch up, but I'm sure what the others have said is fine

	01-12-2003 14:08									#419
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Agreed, too. I am going to bed now, but I will try hard to enhance that part tomorrow.

OK, as we need to polish the message before playing and forwarding the save, let's do this as fast as we can. Here is an enhanced version of the relevant paragraph:

quote: Once the war is over, we are ready to fully revive the cooperation and trading between our two nations, including techs, luxuries, and possibly even strategic resources. As correctly implied by your message, a feeble GS would serve the victorious Bobians most, indirectly hurting our own interests. We are ready to ensure GS keeps at least on par with Bob tech-wise and that GS is properly armed to defend its homeland against potential invasions. Once the war on Bob is over (or GS no longer involved in it), there will be nothing preventing a close cooperation between our two nations, unless, of course, GS decides to not cooperate with a nation that hurt its interests in The Great Bobian War. Even if this paragraph is not written in bold, it is the key part of our message to you.

	01-12-2003 14:22									#420
	Inflate your Upload Space

sounds good