15-03-2003 04:31									#301
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's irrelevent. The deal was almost through, and at the last minute the South pulled out of the talks because the Nixon team told them that if they held out they could get a better deal with a Nixon presidency. Kissinger leaked info from the talks to the Nixon team, who funneled their deal to the South through Chenault's wife (of Flying Tiger's fame). The resulting embarressment for the Johnson presidency cost Humphry the election. Four more years of war, 24, 000 American and almost a million Vietnamese lives, plus the whole debacle and genocide in Cambodia were the result of that treason. If Nixon weren't already dead, he should have been executed (not that it would be possible because of Ford's pardon). Kissinger is still around. He needs to dance from the end of a rope.

Che, something doesn't make sense. The SV pulling out of the talks is almost irrelevant if the NV had an offer on the table that Johnson could accept. We could virtually dictate terms to SV because they had no power to resist without our support.

But, of course, if NV had no no such offer on the table, your point about Kissinger is almost irrelevant.

IIRC, we settled Korea without the SK's being at the table.

	15-03-2003 04:39									#302
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Opps, one more point on tax cuts. When we don't have excess inventorie, all tax cuts, particularly those directed to the lowest income levels, will do is cause will cause short-term demand to exceed short term supply thereby driving up prices. But a general, unexpected, price rise is good for business. The price rise reduces the cost of doing business labor, rent and debt costs remain substantially unchanged.

Bottom-line, tax cuts are good for priming pump even if in the short run they only causes inflation.

	15-03-2003 05:08									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Opps, one more point on tax cuts. When we don't have excess inventorie, all tax cuts, particularly those directed to the lowest income levels, will do is cause will cause short-term demand to exceed short term supply thereby driving up prices. But a general, unexpected, price rise is good for business. The price rise reduces the cost of doing business labor, rent and debt costs remain substantially unchanged. Bottom-line, tax cuts are good for priming pump even if in the short run they only causes inflation.

A-

You have to consider the labor market also. You only want stimulus if the economy isn't at full employment and inventories are high.

	15-03-2003 05:35									#304
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Well, Ming didn't like the idea of the following subject to have a thread of it's own, so what do you think? It was intedeed as a poll, but that failed due to some wrong clicks. Please don't miss the sarcastic undertone!

Where will Bush go next?

Bush 43 has started wars with a couple of countries where US failed before.

He went to Afghanistan and fixed the things Reagan and Bush 41 failed - to get the Mujahedin into power and help them keep it. Thanks to the lack of US support after the USSR withdrawal, the Talibans took control - and everybody knows what happened next!

US stopped dead on their tracks after the 1st Gulf War. Iraq was thrown out of Q8, mission completed, lets go home! The Kurds revolted against Saddam, they hoped for US support but Bush ignored them and Saddam's troops killed them in 1000's! Now Bush 43 has to go back and fix what his father failed. The whole world would understood if it happened in 1992 or 1993 but why now? What historic US failure would Dubya try to fix next?

1 - North Korea... They have WoMD, they belong to the axis of evil - what more reasons could there be? And as US failed last time, it's time to make things right!

2 - Belarus... The last dictatorship in Europe, right on the border of NATO. Who knows if that lunatic has Russian nukes hidden away?

3 - France - for obvious reasons! They have WoMD and are arrogant and ignorant, arent' they? Let's invade and take away that veto! They would probably surrender anyway?

4 - Vietnam - US is stronger now, and Viet Cong is weaker - why not?

5 - Somalia - There are still some things to fix, aren't there?

6 - Cuba - Someone still has to get revenge for the bay of pigs - and the evil guy is still there, isn't he?

7- Zimbabwe - Mugabe is still in charge, right? The only charge he deserves is a C4 under his chair!

8 - Iran - The invasion troops are already in place aren't they? Carter failed to take that embassy with special forces, but how could a mission fail twice?

9 - Israel - Ignores UN resolutions, holds WoMD, what more is there?

10 - Pakistan . Harbors 1000's of Al Quieda Members, probably including Osama Bin Laden, threatens it's neighburs with nukes - AARRGGHH!

11 - Banana Republic!

Last edited by Chemical Ollie on 15-03-2003 at 06:09

	15-03-2003 05:44									#305
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Olaf, You might want to correct item 8. It was Carter who tried to rescue the hostages, not Reagan.

	15-03-2003 05:47									#306
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You left out two obvious possibilities, Columbia and Sudan.

	15-03-2003 05:57									#307
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quote: 7- Zimbabwe - Mubuto is still in charge, right? The only charge he deserves is a C4 under his chair!

This is wrong as well. Mugabe is in charge in Zimbabwe; Mubuto was from Zaire and is dead, I think.

	15-03-2003 06:09									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Olaf, You might want to correct item 8. It was Carter who tried to rescue the hostages, not Reagan.

Fixed thx

	15-03-2003 06:12									#309
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You left out two obvious possibilities, Columbia and Sudan.

Included in Banana Republic... Well, Ming doesn't want me to make a poll about this topic anyway, so it's not a big deal.

	15-03-2003 06:13									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: 7- Zimbabwe - Mubuto is still in charge, right? The only charge he deserves is a C4 under his chair! This is wrong as well. Mugabe is in charge in Zimbabwe; Mubuto was from Zaire and is dead, I think.

Fixed, thx Stupid me, forgetting history!

	15-03-2003 07:57									#311
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's irrelevent. The deal was almost through, and at the last minute the South pulled out of the talks because the Nixon team told them that if they held out they could get a better deal with a Nixon presidency. Kissinger leaked info from the talks to the Nixon team, who funneled their deal to the South through Chenault's wife (of Flying Tiger's fame). The resulting embarressment for the Johnson presidency cost Humphry the election. Four more years of war, 24, 000 American and almost a million Vietnamese lives, plus the whole debacle and genocide in Cambodia were the result of that treason. If Nixon weren't already dead, he should have been executed (not that it would be possible because of Ford's pardon). Kissinger is still around. He needs to dance from the end of a rope.

Che you need to get pass Kissinger once and for ever. You are being blinded by him.
A man name Wallace cost Humphry the election. Neither the Demo or Rep realize that Wallace would pull the votes like he did. It was a dead heat between Humphry and Nixon on election day. It was Calif. that gave Nixon the win. Nixon won Calif with if I remember correctly 37% of the vote. That right 37% of the lousy vote. (I was a Humphry man). Humphry got around 35% of the vote and stupid Wallace took around 21% and the rest to minor canididates. Without Wallace most of that 21% would have gone to Humphry and he would have won in Calif.
Final vote was Nixon 31,710,470 w/301 electoral votes, Humphry 30,898,055 w/191 electoral votes, Wallace 9,446,167 w/46 electoral votes. Yes I know 46 and 191 is only 237, but with Calif. 35 electoral votes, Humphry would have had 272 electoral votes and won by 2.

On the Kissinger thing, the same was said about Bush 1 going to Paris to meet with Iran and told them not to release the hostages so that Reagan could beat Carter.

	15-03-2003 11:32									#312
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How long would it take?

10, maybe 20 years?

	15-03-2003 13:05									#313
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This whole France thing is intriguing.

I have heard reports that France is trying to organize European countries into a superpower to balance out the U.S. They feel that there should not be one superpower in the world. And of course France wants to be the leadership of that superpower.

Why does France crave all that power? What are their intentions? I'm sure they don't want to go to war with anyone. They would lose as usual.

I figure within 20 years they may try an embargo on the U.S. It may work. France is very good at working with nations like Iraq. If they can get other Middle east countries on board they could seriously cripple the U.S. temporarily. Until U.S. forces conquer all of the middle east.

	15-03-2003 14:37									#314
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The french political elite is a bunch of inbred monkeys suffering from delusions of grandeur. What surprises me a bit is the lack of skill in their current effort. Eg I don't understand why they didn't work with the last UK proposal.

	15-03-2003 14:44									#315
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Because the UK is part of the US camp, and it wouldn't do to be seen caving to them?

	15-03-2003 14:50									#316
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There's a clear rift between the US and the UK. They could have played this.

	15-03-2003 14:54									#317
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The US would've supported the UK proposal, so I'm not sure how the 'rift' would have figured in.

How's the Azores this time of year?

	15-03-2003 15:02									#318
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It's far from certain the US would have supported it, especially with a realistic timeline.

	15-03-2003 15:46									#319
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I'm very worried about the direction of international events. Some evil fool flies some planes into some US buildings and within 18 months the Western alliance is in tatters. This is not good.

In the last 18 months the US has gone from almost total international support and sympathy to verging on international pariah status. That is tragic and the negative effects will be widely felt by every one of us.

The only one who could be pleased about this is OBL and people of his ilk.

	15-03-2003 18:43									#320
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No, because only a madman would force a country with enough nukes to depopulate the planet into an isolationist stance.

I can see no strategy where France or Germany can win this one.

	15-03-2003 20:58									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm very worried about the direction of international events. Some evil fool flies some planes into some US buildings and within 18 months the Western alliance is in tatters. This is not good. In the last 18 months the US has gone from almost total international support and sympathy to verging on international pariah status. That is tragic and the negative effects will be widely felt by every one of us. The only one who could be pleased about this is OBL and people of his ilk.

Ditto

	15-03-2003 21:00									#322
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AH, I know all the protesters say Iraq is about Oil. Does the average person think this as well?

	15-03-2003 22:25									#323
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It's far from certain the US would have supported it, especially with a realistic timeline.

Exactly. Anyway, I think the UK's proposition wouldn't have included a "realistic timeline" (their troops won't stay in Iraq for months, and Iraq can't be disarmed in 2 weeks), so it was a joke from the beginning.
That's probably why France refused it. It's clear that now, any resolution from USA, UK or Spain aims at beginning the war very soon, not finding a single way to avoid it.

	15-03-2003 22:37									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Anyway, I think the UK's proposition wouldn't have included a "realistic timeline" (their troops won't stay in Iraq for months, and Iraq can't be disarmed in 2 weeks), so it was a joke from the beginning.

The UK's proposal made no mention of complete disarmament. It only laid out a series of benchmarks that Iraq could have met in short order.

	15-03-2003 23:21									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm very worried about the direction of international events. Some evil fool flies some planes into some US buildings and within 18 months the Western alliance is in tatters. This is not good. In the last 18 months the US has gone from almost total international support and sympathy to verging on international pariah status. That is tragic and the negative effects will be widely felt by every one of us. The only one who could be pleased about this is OBL and people of his ilk.

Awkward mixture of facts

Flying the planes into some US buildings united the western alliance as had not been seen since the aftermath of WW2. So did many not western countries expressed their support.

USA' s isolated position 18 month later has a completely different cause, and a completely different man is responsible for it.

I agree though that it is Osama and his like must be enjoying it very much.

	15-03-2003 23:41									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Ned AH, I know all the protesters say Iraq is about Oil. Does the average person think this as well?

I think most people think this. Oil has something to do with it. Bottom line, our desire for stability in the ME is a desire to protect the world's precious lifeline, but it's not the immediate cause. The immediate cause is that the US cannot allow Iraq to go on defying the US while the US is attempting to establish world hegemony.

	15-03-2003 23:46									#327
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara while the US is attempting to establish world hegemony.

God is there any sort of consensus on this point? I get a different answer to the question regarding the US status of world hegemon depending on the person answering.

quote: our desire for stability in the ME is a desire to protect the world's precious lifeline,

If we want stability in the ME, why are we going to kick over a hornet's nest?

	15-03-2003 23:48									#328
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Flying the planes into some US buildings united the western alliance as had not been seen since the aftermath of WW2. So did many not western countries expressed their support. USA' s isolated position 18 month later has a completely different cause, and a completely different man is responsible for it.

No it doesn't. US policy makers saw the massacres as a gift. Wolfowitz and his followers saw this as their golden chance to institute the policy he'd been advocating since the early '90s: pre-emptive war, establishing US global dominence, etc. From the moment al-Qaeda crashed into our buildings, Hussein's days were numbered. The only reason we didn't attack Iraq right then and there was because the more sensible policy makers won the argument that we needed to go after Afganistan first, in order to rally support at home. There was a fantastic Frontline. You can watch it there.

	15-03-2003 23:52									#329
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc God is there any sort of consensus on this point? I get a different answer to the question regarding the US status of world hegemon depending on the person answering.

No, there is no consensus on the point. We'll be arguing about this until it's blatently obvious one way or another.

quote: quote: our desire for stability in the ME is a desire to protect the world's precious lifeline, If we want stability in the ME, why are we going to kick over a hornet's nest?

Because the "true believers" in the Administration really think that this will help stabilize the region. They're on a crusade.

	16-03-2003 02:48									#330
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Awkward mixture of facts Flying the planes into some US buildings united the western alliance as had not been seen since the aftermath of WW2. So did many not western countries expressed their support. USA' s isolated position 18 month later has a completely different cause, and a completely different man is responsible for it.

The 2 things are intimately linked. It was the US reaction to 9/11 which has caused the current deep rift. Instead of building an international coalition the Bush Administration quickly started alienating international support with its unilateralism. Its a peculiar mix of international activism and isolationism. It seemed to be quickly forgotten that every Western country lost people in 9/11, not just Americans.

You would have to say that sadly the 9/11 attack has been extraordinarily successful in weakening the Western alliance. Many good things now hang in the balance - NATO, EU integration, the world trade round, the United Nations to name but 4. Worst of all, this militarism is a massive distraction from global economic recovery. Looks like Bush is making similar mistakes to his father - its the economy stupid!!!