13-03-2003 09:41									#211
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quote: Originally posted by cia But DuncanK, Clinton didn't follow that agenda so that means he was great? He slashed military spending, jacked taxes, but he did do the petty military thing.

Just reactionary (to a small degree) to the Republicans, just like the Republicans are reactionary to the Democrats. We are stuck in this raise taxes\cut taxes, increase military spending\decrease military spending and regulate business\deregulate business pendulum swing.

	13-03-2003 09:48									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Duncan, You an I strongly disagree on Reagan. What an inspirational presidency!

Why do you like him more than the other Republicans? He was a good compromiser. I have to admit that Republicans tend to be pretty good at that.

	13-03-2003 09:50									#213
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That's just the way of the world. Radical actions cause radical reponses then it settles out until the next action. I for one see Bush as a polar opposite of Clinton, just as anticipated.

	13-03-2003 09:52									#214
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quote: Originally posted by cia That's just the way of the world. Radical actions cause radical reponses then it settles out until the next action. I for one see Bush as a polar opposite of Clinton, just as anticipated.

I don't think they are much different at all. They just like to keep appearing as such.

	13-03-2003 10:02									#215
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quote: No president has had any vision since Kennedy and Johnson.

Only a far lefty Dem would make this premise with a straight face.

Johnson, btw, really had no vision. He simply was a politico.

Reagan, without a DOUBT, had a vision. "The Shining City on the Hill". Relegating Communism to the 'asheap of history'. Making America 'strong again'. Very, very visionary President and was derided by the left for having too much vision (which they thought was too idealistic).

Clinton also had a vision. It wasn't as broad as Reagan's, but Clinton definetly wished for a more democratic, peaceful world. Clinton was practical, however, and realized that we couldn't do it by going around everywhere.

	13-03-2003 10:07									#216
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Clinton tended the alliances, but left a lot of foreign policy problems for his successor to deal with. He repeatedly deferred the tough decisions.

	13-03-2003 10:15									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Johnson, btw, really had no vision. He simply was a politico.

First president to make government take some responsibility for poverty-Significantly changed the federal government.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Reagan, without a DOUBT, had a vision. "The Shining City on the Hill". Relegating Communism to the 'asheap of history'. Making America 'strong again'. Very, very visionary President and was derided by the left for having too much vision (which they thought was too idealistic). Clinton also had a vision. It wasn't as broad as Reagan's, but Clinton definetly wished for a more democratic, peaceful world. Clinton was practical, however, and realized that we couldn't do it by going around everywhere.

Ah poo poo. All presidents, both Republican and Democrats, tried to do both things. That's no vision.

	13-03-2003 10:20									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Only a far lefty Dem would make this premise with a straight face.

I don't consider myself a Dem. If one comes along who has a vision, and has a chance to win, I'll vote for him, but that hasn't happened yet.

	13-03-2003 10:23									#219
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quote: Ah poo poo. All presidents, both Republican and Democrats, tried to do both things. That's no vision.

Just because you don't agree with the vision doesn't mean they had no vision.

Reagan, especially, was probably the President with the greatest vision since 1800.

quote: First president to make government take some responsibility for poverty-Significantly changed the federal government.

Poo poo. All presidents tried to do things. That's no vision.

See how silly your argument looks now.

Johnson wanted a War on Poverty, but I'm not sure how much vision was behind that. If he actually forsaw a US without poverty at all is something I'm not sure he really believed.

	13-03-2003 10:26									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Reagan, especially, was probably the President with the greatest vision since 1800.

Why, other presidents cut taxes and fought the Cold War? Nothing new to offer.

	13-03-2003 10:28									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Johnson wanted a War on Poverty, but I'm not sure how much vision was behind that. If he actually forsaw a US without poverty at all is something I'm not sure he really believed.

Johnson gave children with no income a place to live and food to eat. That is extremely visionary.

	13-03-2003 10:31									#222
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How is that visionary by itself?!

It's simply a policy choice. Visonary implies a view at how the future should be and what should happen in that future. If Johnson said that the future should be a lack of poverty, then there was vision there. However, I believe most of it was simply the help the poor, without a lot of vision behind it.

Only the most anti-Republican would claim Reagan had no vision, btw. Even his enemies know he had a vision, they just disagree with it.

	13-03-2003 10:40									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Reagan, especially, was probably the President with the greatest vision since 1800.

Spoken like someone who was about 5 years old when Reagan was around. The man had all the intellect of a tea trolley. He was probably senile when still in office.

	13-03-2003 10:46									#224
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Even if that was true, does that have anything to do with vision? And anti-Reagan forces start their ultimatly losing assault. Again .

	13-03-2003 10:48									#225
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Reagan wasn't visionary, he was a simpleton. Don't confuse vision with simpleness.

	13-03-2003 10:51									#226
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Yes, yes... according to the anti-Reaganite forces, he did nothing right. Of course this happens to fly in the face of his landslide victories, which they subsequently explain away by aliens brainwashing people or some other such nonsense.

Of course AH would naturally flow to this anti-ism.

	13-03-2003 10:54									#227
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So I assume from that you support Reaganomics Imran?

	13-03-2003 10:59									#228
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No, not really. I'm not a supply-sider. But I like the idea of lesser government and standing up to communism, even if he did not follow them closely. As is common for most leaders, his vision didn't exactly follow his practice.

	13-03-2003 11:04									#229
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Well you gotta admit the economists were all stumped until someone actually had the brilliant idea to actually look at the supply side and do something about it.

Before then the economy was stuck.

	13-03-2003 11:14									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well you gotta admit the economists were all stumped until someone actually had the brilliant idea to actually look at the supply side and do something about it. Before then the economy was stuck.

What are you talking about? The history of capitalism is mostly supply-side. Are you talking about trickle down economics? The Republicans of the 1920s came up with that crap long ago. That wasn't a vision. Just an attempt to make the same old mistakes that Republicans had already been making for generations.

	13-03-2003 11:17									#231
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Imran,

Johnson permanently changed the federal government with a new type of policy, Reagan didn't. He just continued current policy.

I give you one possible exception with the deficits, but I don't think they were that significant.

	13-03-2003 11:18									#232
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quote: The history of capitalism is mostly supply-side.

Not since Say has economics been 'mostly' supply-side. Keynesianism, for example, is very demand-side.

	13-03-2003 11:22									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The history of capitalism is mostly supply-side. Not since Say has economics been 'mostly' supply-side. Keynesianism, for example, is very demand-side.

Capitalism was supply-side before free market theory. We finally started to make some taxes progressive under Wilson. Mostly the tax system has tended to put resources in the hands of the wealthy. Rarely has there been any significant attempt to stimulate the economy with demand.

	13-03-2003 11:26									#234
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK What are you talking about? The history of capitalism is mostly supply-side. Are you talking about trickle down economics? The Republicans of the 1920s came up with that crap long ago. That wasn't a vision. Just an attempt to make the same old mistakes that Republicans had already been making for generations.

Sounds like you're more concerned with tribalism than actually looking at economics.

Bottom Line
---------------

1970s economy: sucked
1980s economy: boom

	13-03-2003 11:26									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Spoken like someone who was about 5 years old when Reagan was around. The man had all the intellect of a tea trolley. He was probably senile when still in office.

AH, you don't have a clue, do you.

I have lived through presidents since Truman. The presidents that really stood out and inspired people were Kennedy and Reagan. Both knew how to inspire people and a nation to great things.

(Odd, isn't it, that both were Irish?)

	13-03-2003 11:26									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The history of capitalism is mostly supply-side. Not since Say has economics been 'mostly' supply-side. Keynesianism, for example, is very demand-side.

Not in fiscal policy. And keynesian monetary policy has caused a lot of consumers to go into debt. That in itself tend to be supply-side in the long run-at least the way its been used by conservative Fed chairmans.

	13-03-2003 11:27									#237
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Reagan brought pride and hope back to America.

AH knows that the word, "Reaganomics" is an excellent grenade for trolling though. Nice to see you back in form AH.

	13-03-2003 11:29									#238
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Not in fiscal policy. And keynesian monetary policy has caused a lot of consumers to go into debt. That in itself tend to be supply-side in the long run-at least the way its been used by conservative Fed chairmans.

Well sh1t what is your answer then Mr. Every Theory Sucks?

	13-03-2003 11:33									#239
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quote: Capitalism was supply-side before free market theory.

What? Captalism hardly existed BEFORE free market theory!

For an great amount of time, the economic policies of countries were designed to increase demand. The main idea of tax cuts (except for Reagan's) was to stimulate DEMAND. It's mostly been about demand, and the supply side has mainly been ignored with respect to tax cuts.

Supply side economics is basically an extension of Say's Law. Increase supply and the rest of the economy will take care of itself. The only tax cut that has relied on this was Reagan's.

	13-03-2003 11:33									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker 1970s economy: sucked 1980s economy: boom

Actually, the deficits during the 80s were just as much caused by increased spending so they weren't really supply-side deficits. Reagan just talked like that so that he could cut taxes.

I'm not saying that the economy did better in the 80s because of the deficit, although it did help growth in the early eighties. The growth was caused by cheap oil, better consumer spending and a better employment rate. In the 70s we had supply shocks and we couldn't create enough jobs for the baby boomers. And don't tell me that we should have cut taxes in the 70s either. Not even Reagan would have been stupid enough to suggest that with the inflation that we were having.