11-03-2003 07:33									#1
	How long will it take to repair the damge to America done by the Bush regime Suffering from ads?

The economy's in the tank. Okay, that's not really his fault, up to a point. However, two of his policies were terrible for the economy. Number 1, regardless of your stance on the war, the uncertainty around the war is causing economic damage. On top of this, the war is going to cost a lot of money the government doesn't have. Estimates run from sixty billion to two hundred billion dollars. On top of this, with revenues already down and expenditures already expectated to go way up, he wants to push a tax cut that would further decrease government revenue, that would put the government into a long term deficit situation (as opposed to short-term which is okay) at a time when the dollar is already shaky.

Two, Bush has almost completely destroyed America's relationship with the rest of the world. From Kyoto to the World Court to the ABM treaty to the War against Iraq, Bush has thumbed his nose at the international community. It's his way or the high way, there are no negotiations. No one likes being dicatated to, especially not one's allies.

Three, civil rights: okay, we aren't a police state . . . yet. However, we have entered a period of true McCarthyism (unlike the PC crap righties were whining about only a few short years ago). People have had their businesses destroyed for the crime of being Muslim, people have been jailed for months incomunicado, American citizens are being held illegally in military brigs against the rulings of the court, many of the rules put in place to protect us from our government in the '70s have been undone or eroded (and the government has wasted no time in abusing its new powers), and plans are in the works for even greater attacks on civil rights.

Bush has done something the Democrats weren't able to convince me of in over a decade, that Republican or Democrat does make a difference. When will our long national nightmare end?

	11-03-2003 07:36									#2
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Kyoto PFFT
World Court PFFT

War with Iraq.... I'm going to live in fear for the rest of my life, as will all other Americans. People killing themselves to kill Americans... something ain't right.

Civil Rights: Bush didn't write the Patriot Act, that was Republicrat garbage.

Nightmare ending? Never... it is the nature of power.

	11-03-2003 07:41									#3
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Kyoto PFFT World Court PFFT

It's not whether or not you agree with it, but how Bush handled it. Rather than handling things diplomatically, he basically told the world to f*ck off!

Hell, I totally forgot to mention how Bush is handling the crisis on the Korean peninsula, which is largely his fault. If he hadn't told the DRPK to screw itself in the early days of his coup (pulling the rug out from underneath Powell while he did it), they might not be building their bombs and threatening to invade the South.

Meanwhile, Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

	11-03-2003 07:51									#4
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quote: Hell, I totally forgot to mention how Bush is handling the crisis on the Korean peninsula, which is largely his fault.

Not really "largely his fault".

To be sure, he has exasperated the situation... especially his Axis of Evil speech, but NK was already f***ing us over during Clinton days and before that as well.

Some places never get better. But to blame it all on Bush is incorrect. He is not handling it well right now in some people's opinion, but he didn't create the mess. Only adding to it.

By the way, I am not a big Bush fan.... but I believe in accuracy of statement and fact.

One other thing ... regarding economics.... It is still disputed by many economists that tax cuts either increase or decrease Gov't revenue. Some say it hurts short term and is good for long term and others say the opposite. Yet still, some even say tax cuts never help. So it is a disputed fact that you stated in a fashion to be seen as total fact.

(But I'll take the cut if it gives me more of my money. )

	11-03-2003 07:51									#5
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The Bush administration is considerably hurting America's power at longer term, but the damage it does isn't really its fault.
America has now passed the apex of its power, and is entering the lowering curve, as the world is slowly becoming multipolar : the intra-European crisis will likely need to an ambitious Common Foreign and Security Policy, which will make the EU a significant diplomatic actor in less than 20 years, as it is a significant economic actor today. China still is growing and being modernized, which should make it the most influent country in a couple of decades. Russia seems to seethe its wounds, and is likely to get power with its remaining huge military ability.
It doesn't mean the US will become a small actor, but it will merely become one of the big dogs, rather than the absolute boss it is now.

Bush alienates the international community, and thus fastens this process. The arrogance of his administration helps the US of being hated, and helps other blocs to solidify on a easily criticizable common enemy. However, despite all his mistakes and clumsiness, he isn't the source of America ceasing to be the hyperpower.

On domestic policies, I don't think it will last forever. The paranoia born from Sept. 11 will abate at some point, and the McCarthysm you're currently knowing will be scorned upon by history as the former one.
Overall, I think Bush will be harshly criticized by history books for its terrible misuse of his power, but he isn't the source of America's uncurable problems.

	11-03-2003 07:51									#6
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Economy: 8 years of Democrats or Greens needed to fix it
Diplomacy: Could be fixed almost instantaneously (If we are lucky, Bush has been pulling a Brian Mulroney on the Republicans)
Civil Rights: 25+ years of Supreme Court cases

	11-03-2003 07:55									#7
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Good post Che. All excellent points.

	11-03-2003 08:01									#8
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As all historical hyperpowers go, so will the US. No one country can maintain dominance forever. While there is currently a multipolar environment emerging, this is only an interim phase. Eventually China will emerge as a superpower. When this happens, the west will once again unite to create a bi-polar world (No pun intended!). At the end of the day, we will still have more common interest than differences.

On Civil Rights(For my fellow Americans): The Patriot Act is one of the greatest assualts on our liberty ever. Read it and the write your congressman. We cannot wait for this to just go away. It is your government, you must act now to keep it that way!

	11-03-2003 08:05									#9
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You made me curious Plato. I didn't think the patriot act was that terrible. Do you know where I can find it ?

	11-03-2003 08:06									#10
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I'll get it for you and post it here.

	11-03-2003 08:10									#11
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The "Patriot Act"

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011025_hr3162_usa_patriot_bill.html

	11-03-2003 08:14									#12
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thanks

	11-03-2003 08:22									#13
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quote: It's not whether or not you agree with it, but how Bush handled it. Rather than handling things diplomatically, he basically told the world to f*ck off!

Bush? The Senate voted that garbage down 99-0.

	11-03-2003 08:23									#14
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Bush has been good for the US.

	11-03-2003 08:36									#15
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I'm starting to see that the US economy will never be the same. Wealth will keep decreasing and spending will never be what it was. I don't know if the dems can make it workable, but any more Republican governments and there will be serious trouble.

Two other points. I've seen estimates of the war costing the economy as much as 1.9 trillion dollars in direct and indirect costs. And I doubt if China will ever reach the economic strength that people are assuming they will. They have serious problems. I'm suprised they have made it this far.

	11-03-2003 08:38									#16
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Wow, this is the first DanS' troll ! j/k

More seriously, I really wonder what good happened to the US under Bush's rule. Except for very small occurences, I fail to see anything positive for the US.

	11-03-2003 08:42									#17
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quote: Except for very small occurences, I fail to see anything positive for the US.

We've found out who our real friends are on the world stage. That's invaluable...

	11-03-2003 08:52									#18
	Re: How long will it take to repair the damge to America done by the Bush regime Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

'till shortly after victory in Iraq... I doubt ther will be any lasting schism

	11-03-2003 08:53									#19
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We've alienated everyone who isnt our sissy *****

	11-03-2003 08:53									#20
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Your "real friends" will change in less than 3 years. If you think any country is siding with you out of friendship, you'll be sorely disappointed as soon as their short term interests won't coincide with yours.
Maybe Blair's UK is a genuine friend to the US. Others side with the US opportunistically, by the same way some countries oppose the US out of opportunism. Don't be fooled.

	11-03-2003 09:05									#21
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quote: Others side with the US opportunistically, by the same way some countries oppose the US out of opportunism. Don't be fooled.

BS. How are the interests of the UK, Australia, Spain, Japan and South Korea served by a war in Iraq? They aren't, which shows that these countries are real allies of the United States.

	11-03-2003 09:06									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman 'till shortly after victory in Iraq... I doubt ther will be any lasting schism

Between America and Europe, the schism will probably cease after the Iraq crisis. Especially since diplomats seem bent on abating the diplomatic rage that occured.
However, there are good chances America gets even more hated by the Arab world with the war, and only a very deep policy towards the Arabs (and a solution to the war in Israel) can change this tide.

Also, with all Bush's provocations towards muslim fundamentalists, the political situation in Afghanistan is more and more difficult for Musharraf to manage, and Afghanistan might end up being the first Islamic nuclear power. You can imagine how ugly this can become if this power backs the Taliban again, or if it stops the old rivalry between Pakistan and Iran.

I think Bush has considerably helped the cause of Antiamericanism worldwide. While this antiamericanism will probably end in traditional US allies (i.e Europe), it will continue and progress in all countries that encourage it. And THAT would be a shasm.

	11-03-2003 09:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Except for very small occurences, I fail to see anything positive for the US. We've found out who our real friends are on the world stage. That's invaluable...

Real friends try and stop you from doing something dangerous, stupid, and illegal.

	11-03-2003 09:11									#24
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The war might help the economy. Of course, you can't predict what will happen in the war but the most likely situation is us completely overwhelming Iraq, especially if we have help from the UN. The swift victories for us will boost investor confidence, just like the Battle of Coral Sea and Midway did. That's my prediction. I agree with Kman, I don't think there will be a great schism besides right after the war. We'll get a new president and the world will think, "The last pres made a bad decision, they have a new one now." and they won't be mad, hopefully. The economy started to go sour at the end of Clinton's last term, so it wasn't Bush's fault. The technology bubble was bound to burst sooner or later.

What I'm worried about is what the Arab world will think after the war. I'm scared of another 9/11.

	11-03-2003 09:16									#25
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quote: Real friends try and stop you from doing something dangerous, stupid, and illegal.

Real friends maintain their loyalty while trying to push you onto another path. That is what Tony Blair and the UK have tried to do.

Real friends don't openly lead the opposition to your efforts, even if they think you're making a mistake. France is no friend to the United States, no matter how you spin it...

	11-03-2003 09:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Real friends try and stop you from doing something dangerous, stupid, and illegal. Real friends maintain their loyalty while trying to push you onto another path. That is what Tony Blair and the UK have tried to do. Real friends don't openly lead the opposition to your efforts, even if they think you're making a mistake. France is no friend to the United States, no matter how you spin it...

Real Friends don't sh*t on their allies, and threaten them economically the first instance they disagree.

Friendship works both ways.

	11-03-2003 09:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Others side with the US opportunistically, by the same way some countries oppose the US out of opportunism. Don't be fooled. BS. How are the interests of the UK, Australia, Spain, Japan and South Korea served by a war in Iraq? They aren't, which shows that these countries are real allies of the United States.

UK : according to the Brits here, Blair tries to give an international standing to the UK by modifying the US policy. Blair is mostly credited with sending Bush to the UN. Also, the UK needs a strong alliance with the US for its technology transfers, and military efficiency (intelligence exchanges and such). But I admit the UK is probably the only country which follows the US out of friendship.

Spain : Care to wonder why the Axis of Vassals took a whole week to write its letter supporting Bush ? Spain and Italy (and Britain) are playing a power struggle against France and Germany within the EU. The construction of the Common Foreign and Security Policy is at stake. Aznar took the opportunity to oppose the homogenous power within Europe (French-Germany) by siding with the homogenous power outside Europe. Also, Aznar tries to give the long lost Spanish international status : the Persille affair went in that direction, the participation in writing tomorrow's resolution too.
You can be sure Spain will oppose the US if it messes with Morocco. Spanish position is purely opportunitic.

South Korea : They need a powerful ally against the dangerous NK (which has the potential to level most of Seoul extremely quickly, according to Seeker). China would be a good ally, but China's motivations in helping SK would be much worse than US' motivations, and they are looking for as many allies as possible anyways. Should the US have a policy towards NK too absurd in the eyes SK'ers, SK will flee the US' domination as soon as a satisfying alternative appears.

Japan : It has nearly nothing to lose in that war, and wan win some international recognition if it gets to send peacekeeping troops. Also, Japan wouldn't want to create divisions over such a minor matter for Japan's interests, while the coalition must remain united in the upcoming clash against NK.

Australia : Also, nothing to lose. By showing to the US and the world they have some power projection abilities, Australia can hope becoming recognized as a regional power, and hopes finding wore goodwill from the US next time Australia's and Indonesia's interests will clash. However, I admit the cultural bonds can help Australia to have a generally better goodwill towards the US than others.


In general, I think countries who vocally support the US either need them for protection (Japan, South Korea) or try to snatch some power by being buddy-buddy with the hyperpower. They all have their interests. And I remain sure your "friends" will disappoint you as soon as their interests will be diverging.
After all, some Americans call France an "enemy" because our interests don't coincide with yours on the Iraq issue. Interesting view of what an ally is, don't you think ?

	11-03-2003 09:30									#28
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I think that america's fall from 'hyperpower' status will be exacerbated by the fact that it's spending too much on it's military - the US accounts for around 30% of global GDP (estimated using exchange rates) but 45% of world defence spending.

This means that other countries have more resources to devote to investing in their economy and that any future arms race between the major powers will hit the US hardest.
For example, if China and India grow as expected over the next 20 years (China going from 53% of the US to 74%, India from 25% to 40%) then even if they limit their defence spending to the same share of GDP as it is now the US is going to have to raise their spending from the current 4.3% to 6.2% just to keep the ratio between it's spending and theirs the same.

	11-03-2003 09:31									#29
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Spiffor [/SIZE Also, with all Bush's provocations towards muslim fundamentalists, the political situation in Afghanistan is more and more difficult for Musharraf to manage, and Afghanistan might end up being the first Islamic nuclear power.

Afghanistan? Pakistan already is the 1st "Islamic" nuclear power. Iran will probably be next. I just can't see Afghanistan in the "club" under any circumstances.

	11-03-2003 09:32									#30
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quote: Real Friends don't sh*t on their allies, and threaten them economically the first instance they disagree. Friendship works both ways.

Amen.